<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Chаrter 08 and political change in China</title>
	<atom:link href="http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006</link>
	<description>Of China changing the World</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 01:40:58 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Why Google.cn is Evil and should leave China &#124; CHINAYOUREN</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-19938</link>
		<dc:creator>Why Google.cn is Evil and should leave China &#124; CHINAYOUREN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 19:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-19938</guid>
		<description>[...] is also the reason why initiatives like Chrter 08 never make it in China: it is not about users trying to get access to dissident sites, it is about [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is also the reason why initiatives like Chrter 08 never make it in China: it is not about users trying to get access to dissident sites, it is about [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Happy Christmas. Liu Xiao Bo got 11 years. &#124; CHINAYOUREN</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-19865</link>
		<dc:creator>Happy Christmas. Liu Xiao Bo got 11 years. &#124; CHINAYOUREN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-19865</guid>
		<description>[...] one year ago, on Christmas Day, I published this post about Liu&#8217;s Charter. I was critical with the initiative for many reasons: it contained [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] one year ago, on Christmas Day, I published this post about Liu&#8217;s Charter. I was critical with the initiative for many reasons: it contained [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Beaumarchais and the Nanny &#124; CHINAYOUREN</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-17262</link>
		<dc:creator>Beaumarchais and the Nanny &#124; CHINAYOUREN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-17262</guid>
		<description>[...] I was answering to a comment on the Chrter 08 post, I felt a sudden urge to find the original context for one of my favourite quotes, which stands on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I was answering to a comment on the Chrter 08 post, I felt a sudden urge to find the original context for one of my favourite quotes, which stands on [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brown Bourne: Favorites</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-6287</link>
		<dc:creator>Brown Bourne: Favorites</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-6287</guid>
		<description>[...] http://chinayouren.com/en/2008/12/charter-08-and-political-change-in-china/ * [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://chinayouren.com/en/2008/12/charter-08-and-political-change-in-china/" rel="nofollow">http://chinayouren.com/en/2008/12/charter-08-and-political-change-in-china/</a> * [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Ferguson</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-290</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ferguson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-290</guid>
		<description>&quot;Village elections over the last twenty years have shown that the party has nothing but contempt for such exercise...&quot;

This seems a rather superficial analysis of the problems in making village democracy work. Others argue that the party supports village democracy specifically because it reinforces the party&#039;s grip on power. Both views can&#039;t be right.

Here&#039;s an alternative analysis. Democracy is not a pair of magic underpants that you can put on one morning to solve all your problems in one fell swoop. It is an instrument that is fragile, blunt and complex. 

When village democracy was first introduced large numbers of people, amounting to significant majorities in specific rural constituencies, would have been functionally illiterate. When you are functionally illiterate you cannot read either documents explaining processes or candidates&#039; manifestos. You are therefore entirely dependent on having things explained to you by word of mouth, a process which is both inefficient and subject to whatever interpretation the &#039;explainer&#039; chooses to put on it. Want an example? Here&#039;s one: &quot;It&#039;s easy. Just mark a cross here.&quot;

Even today, very large numbers of rural people (for example many of those over 40), although no longer illiterate by WHO or UN standards, will have received only a rudimentary education. You can implement democracy all you like but it won&#039;t serve its purpose until the electorate is sufficiently well-educated to take advantage of it, and even more important, to protect itself from possible abuse.

I will be writing a series of articles on the subject of Chrter 08 in the coming weeks on China.org. You are all welcome to append your comments. The first one is here:
http://www.china.org.cn/international/2009-01/14/content_17106331.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Village elections over the last twenty years have shown that the party has nothing but contempt for such exercise&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>This seems a rather superficial analysis of the problems in making village democracy work. Others argue that the party supports village democracy specifically because it reinforces the party&#8217;s grip on power. Both views can&#8217;t be right.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an alternative analysis. Democracy is not a pair of magic underpants that you can put on one morning to solve all your problems in one fell swoop. It is an instrument that is fragile, blunt and complex. </p>
<p>When village democracy was first introduced large numbers of people, amounting to significant majorities in specific rural constituencies, would have been functionally illiterate. When you are functionally illiterate you cannot read either documents explaining processes or candidates&#8217; manifestos. You are therefore entirely dependent on having things explained to you by word of mouth, a process which is both inefficient and subject to whatever interpretation the &#8216;explainer&#8217; chooses to put on it. Want an example? Here&#8217;s one: &#8220;It&#8217;s easy. Just mark a cross here.&#8221;</p>
<p>Even today, very large numbers of rural people (for example many of those over 40), although no longer illiterate by WHO or UN standards, will have received only a rudimentary education. You can implement democracy all you like but it won&#8217;t serve its purpose until the electorate is sufficiently well-educated to take advantage of it, and even more important, to protect itself from possible abuse.</p>
<p>I will be writing a series of articles on the subject of Chrter 08 in the coming weeks on China.org. You are all welcome to append your comments. The first one is here:<br />
<a href="http://www.china.org.cn/international/2009-01/14/content_17106331.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.china.org.cn/international/2009-01/14/content_17106331.htm</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: uln</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-261</link>
		<dc:creator>uln</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 01:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-261</guid>
		<description>Hi cc,

Thanks for the comment and the links. I just had a quick look at your blog and it looks really good, looking forward to reading you from now on. I am increasingly interested in Chinese politics and I find there is a lack of English speaking blogs centered on this as opposed the the massive number on buisiness, internet and anecdotes.

@Charlotte: thanks for your contribuions. I&#039;ve been a bit scared recently since you suggested in a comment that I give my life for the revolution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi cc,</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment and the links. I just had a quick look at your blog and it looks really good, looking forward to reading you from now on. I am increasingly interested in Chinese politics and I find there is a lack of English speaking blogs centered on this as opposed the the massive number on buisiness, internet and anecdotes.</p>
<p>@Charlotte: thanks for your contribuions. I&#8217;ve been a bit scared recently since you suggested in a comment that I give my life for the revolution.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: cc</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-259</link>
		<dc:creator>cc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-259</guid>
		<description>Excellent discussion going on here and I really liked the blog post. But, I think something that can contribute to this discussion is what the CCP actually thinks democracy is. I wrote something readable on this: http://chinamatic.blogspot.com 
 
I think that this article (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06EED71438F93BA35757C0A9629C8B63) can also contribute to Charlotte&#039;s comments on the CCP&#039;s refusal to let the Chinese people self-govern.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent discussion going on here and I really liked the blog post. But, I think something that can contribute to this discussion is what the CCP actually thinks democracy is. I wrote something readable on this: <a href="http://chinamatic.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://chinamatic.blogspot.com</a> </p>
<p>I think that this article (<a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06EED71438F93BA35757C0A9629C8B63" rel="nofollow">http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06EED71438F93BA35757C0A9629C8B63</a>) can also contribute to Charlotte&#8217;s comments on the CCP&#8217;s refusal to let the Chinese people self-govern.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chrter 08: Why it should be called Wang &#124; CHINAYOUREN</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-254</link>
		<dc:creator>Chrter 08: Why it should be called Wang &#124; CHINAYOUREN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-254</guid>
		<description>[...] I started my article about the Chrter 08 last month I couldn&#8217;t help wondering if it was well worth the effort. Most of the English [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I started my article about the Chrter 08 last month I couldn&#8217;t help wondering if it was well worth the effort. Most of the English [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Charlotte Stant</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlotte Stant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-243</guid>
		<description>One of the most cogent arguments for political reform in China is that many of the past mistakes with gargantuan consequences for China&#039;s forseeable future may not have been made if many segments of society have been allowed to give more input.  If China had a more participatory political process and the &quot;consultative parties&quot; not mere flower-vases as they came to be known, the radical communization that led to PLA soldiers guarding granaries and turning away starving peasants would not have happened.  In today&#039;s context, China&#039;s economic reform would have been more tempered, the pains and gains shared more evenly, and the environment, worker and farmer rights better protected. 

Frankly, I find apologists for the CCP baffling if admirable in their intellectual undertaking.  Do they delight in defending the worst behavior on earth? At least genocides sometimes occur between warring peoples; these folks are too weak to take on, kill and oppress anyone except their own.  

Please do not give me the sob story of what a difficult job the CCP has always had and would others have done better. As a surge of Chinese people would tell you on the message boards in China, a) China would not be such a mess now if the CCP has not f*ck&#039;d it up so badly and b) if it&#039;s too hot get out of the kitchen and let others have a go at it! c) the Chinese people are tired of being told that they are the most intelligent race on earth, beating out even the Germans and the Jews (Yes, the leadership is racist to bat, but no surprises there!), and the most hard-working, and the most moral, etc.  Except that they are not fit to rule themselves.  Just a tiny caveat, that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the most cogent arguments for political reform in China is that many of the past mistakes with gargantuan consequences for China&#8217;s forseeable future may not have been made if many segments of society have been allowed to give more input.  If China had a more participatory political process and the &#8220;consultative parties&#8221; not mere flower-vases as they came to be known, the radical communization that led to PLA soldiers guarding granaries and turning away starving peasants would not have happened.  In today&#8217;s context, China&#8217;s economic reform would have been more tempered, the pains and gains shared more evenly, and the environment, worker and farmer rights better protected. </p>
<p>Frankly, I find apologists for the CCP baffling if admirable in their intellectual undertaking.  Do they delight in defending the worst behavior on earth? At least genocides sometimes occur between warring peoples; these folks are too weak to take on, kill and oppress anyone except their own.  </p>
<p>Please do not give me the sob story of what a difficult job the CCP has always had and would others have done better. As a surge of Chinese people would tell you on the message boards in China, a) China would not be such a mess now if the CCP has not f*ck&#8217;d it up so badly and b) if it&#8217;s too hot get out of the kitchen and let others have a go at it! c) the Chinese people are tired of being told that they are the most intelligent race on earth, beating out even the Germans and the Jews (Yes, the leadership is racist to bat, but no surprises there!), and the most hard-working, and the most moral, etc.  Except that they are not fit to rule themselves.  Just a tiny caveat, that.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Charlotte Stant</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlotte Stant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-242</guid>
		<description>Another reason the CCP&#039;s call for democracy is significant is the events surrounding the Anti-rightist movement in the late fifties.  If there was not the risk of widespread agreement and possibly social organization around democratic reform, the Party would not have cracked down on critics of its dictatorship so vigorously.  (This error led to, among other things, the denunciation of 马寅初。As the writer 黄裳 reminded us in the early eighties, 错批一人，多生三亿。  China unfortunately has now many more than 300 million to show for the CCP&#039;s mad decision to encourage more births rather than follow Ma&#039;s advice and practice birth control.)

Of course, some may argue that the Party overreacted, and that even if the democracy advocates had been given free rein and allowed to publish and organize as they please, the majority of the Chinese people would not have bothered to listen. If that hypothesis holds water, then the CCP has been ruling through nothing but miscalculation and overreaction every step of its rule: from the GLF, to the Cultural Revolution, to Tiananmen, to the crackdown on 08 Charter today.  Why anyone should defend a political party that unjustifiably treats its own population as 1 billion domestic enemies is beyond me.  Can you make an argument that such mistakes lend any government legitimacy? And we have not even touched on the right of self-governance as a universal principle yet!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another reason the CCP&#8217;s call for democracy is significant is the events surrounding the Anti-rightist movement in the late fifties.  If there was not the risk of widespread agreement and possibly social organization around democratic reform, the Party would not have cracked down on critics of its dictatorship so vigorously.  (This error led to, among other things, the denunciation of 马寅初。As the writer 黄裳 reminded us in the early eighties, 错批一人，多生三亿。  China unfortunately has now many more than 300 million to show for the CCP&#8217;s mad decision to encourage more births rather than follow Ma&#8217;s advice and practice birth control.)</p>
<p>Of course, some may argue that the Party overreacted, and that even if the democracy advocates had been given free rein and allowed to publish and organize as they please, the majority of the Chinese people would not have bothered to listen. If that hypothesis holds water, then the CCP has been ruling through nothing but miscalculation and overreaction every step of its rule: from the GLF, to the Cultural Revolution, to Tiananmen, to the crackdown on 08 Charter today.  Why anyone should defend a political party that unjustifiably treats its own population as 1 billion domestic enemies is beyond me.  Can you make an argument that such mistakes lend any government legitimacy? And we have not even touched on the right of self-governance as a universal principle yet!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Charlotte Stant</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-238</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlotte Stant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 04:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-238</guid>
		<description>Uln, the reason what the party organ pushed for was significant because it explains in part why the CCP had such overwhelming victory despite the KMT&#039;s superior military and economic advantages after taking over Japanese assets from WWII.  If Chinese people supported the CCP because among other things they promised free press, real elections and a multiparty system, then they were ready for it.  Or do you take their support as tacit acceptance of automatic autocracy?

Leo, I assume you mean KMT refusal proves that China did not provide the historical conditions for democracy.  Please see my response from above.  By that sort of tautological reasoning, as long as the government is not prepared to loosen its control over the population, the population is unprepared for democracy.  If indeed as you seem to be hinting, democracy is such a difficult and perilous enterprise requiring many preconditions, then surely the sooner baby steps are taken the better.  That way, the people have the chance to learn the responsibilities of citizenship and to exercise their rights effectively.  Village elections over the last twenty years have shown that the party has nothing but contempt for such exercise, and stomp down attempts at civic society organizing at every turn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uln, the reason what the party organ pushed for was significant because it explains in part why the CCP had such overwhelming victory despite the KMT&#8217;s superior military and economic advantages after taking over Japanese assets from WWII.  If Chinese people supported the CCP because among other things they promised free press, real elections and a multiparty system, then they were ready for it.  Or do you take their support as tacit acceptance of automatic autocracy?</p>
<p>Leo, I assume you mean KMT refusal proves that China did not provide the historical conditions for democracy.  Please see my response from above.  By that sort of tautological reasoning, as long as the government is not prepared to loosen its control over the population, the population is unprepared for democracy.  If indeed as you seem to be hinting, democracy is such a difficult and perilous enterprise requiring many preconditions, then surely the sooner baby steps are taken the better.  That way, the people have the chance to learn the responsibilities of citizenship and to exercise their rights effectively.  Village elections over the last twenty years have shown that the party has nothing but contempt for such exercise, and stomp down attempts at civic society organizing at every turn.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: uln</title>
		<link>http://chinayouren-free.com/2008/12/25/1006/comment-page-1#comment-237</link>
		<dc:creator>uln</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 03:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chinayouren-free.com/?p=1006#comment-237</guid>
		<description>@Charlotte - Interesting to read what Mao wrote in the 40s. But I can&#039;t really see how this is significant today other than to prove the already well known inconsistency of Mao&#039;s Thought. 

@Leo - I&#039;m not sure I get your point. Do you seriously believe that Mao wanted Democracy and Human Rights, and there was a sort of conspiration by KMT and USA to deny these to the Chinese people? Yes, right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Charlotte &#8211; Interesting to read what Mao wrote in the 40s. But I can&#8217;t really see how this is significant today other than to prove the already well known inconsistency of Mao&#8217;s Thought. </p>
<p>@Leo &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure I get your point. Do you seriously believe that Mao wanted Democracy and Human Rights, and there was a sort of conspiration by KMT and USA to deny these to the Chinese people? Yes, right.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
<!-- WP Super Cache is installed but broken. The path to wp-cache-phase1.php in wp-content/advanced-cache.php must be fixed! -->
