Comments on: Of Language and Culture

By: Language Thursdays: The Holy Fractions | CHINAYOUREN

Language Thursdays: The Holy Fractions | CHINAYOUREN — Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:51:04 +0000

[...] is a new feature in my blog. It is a follow up of the initial Language and Culture posts last year, and I commit from now on to continue the series every Thursday that I feel like [...]

By: uln

uln — Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:20:40 +0000

Thanks Robert for the link. I just checked it out but frankly speaking I that guy doesn’t have a clue. I stick to my Lord Macartney and the mandarins, it is more realistic.

Re my own comment above: I actually checked on John de Francis’s famous ABC dictionary and I saw that 下不了台 has the two meanings, 1 – put someone in an awkward position / be put on the spot, and 2- be unable to back down with good grace.

By: Robertwoo

Robertwoo — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:07:29 +0000

This link http://k.pconline.com.cn/question/691869.html seems to suggest that the “three isles” are three islands in English Strait. The Mainlanders landed on the three isles and used to believe them to be Britain.

But, eventually, I think you need a type of guy like Mr. Qian Zhongshu to fully resolve this kind of question, aha~~

By: uln

uln — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:11:11 +0000

Hi Alice,

Thanks for your comment. It is always useful to have a native speaker to explain those connotations that sometimes the dictionaries miss.

The principle still holds that “on the stage” is understood as an unconfortable situation in the Chinese language, while in the West depending on the context it is mostly neutral/positive.

Of course, to do things properly one would have to analyze the actual origin of the expression 下不了台, what exactly was the 台 that it initially referred to, etc. This is not to be taken as a serious study in linguistics, but just an amateurish post with some curious observations.

If some professional linguist reads this please don’t hesitate to comment / correct my hypothesis.

By: Alice Poon

Alice Poon — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:48:30 +0000

My understanding of 下不了台 is that it is usually used to describe a situation where a person is embarrassed due to a presumptuous or false statement that he makes in public, which is subsequently debunked by others, but where no one is prepared to save him from his embarrassment by giving him a face-saving excuse (i.e. a set of steps for him to climb down from the stage). He is then said to be 下不了台. There is an implied notion that that person has brought the embarrassment on himself in the first place.

By: First tone

First tone — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:25:17 +0000

Well, how about this: The Islands of the British Isles are certainly more than three. But look up 三 in the dictionary and you’ll find that it also means several, many, a few. Makes sense, no?

By: baruk

baruk — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 06:49:44 +0000

thanks uln! i have heard the language of the ethnic group i belong to called a ‘tonal’ language, and i was wondering if it had any relation to chinese. we do not have as complex rules though. very interesting, thank you!

By: uln

uln — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 06:06:44 +0000

I AM UNBLOCKED!

Hi Yin Bin, the Wikipedia entry is very similar to the Baidu one. Yes, I saw that the 3 refers to England, Scotland and Wales, so this expression is equal to Great Britain.

The problem is: these 3 territories are NOT islands! Unless of course the origin of the phrase was: 三岛 as an abbreviation of 三国的岛， “island of three countries”. It sounds weird though.

Anybodu knows the origin of this phrase? Until I am enlightened, I prefer to imagine it was the Mandarins and Lord Macartney…

By: Yin Bin

Yin Bin — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 21:51:39 +0000

I am by no means an expert on British geography. But after checking Wikipedia, I found that the expression “英伦三岛” actually makes some sense. According to Wikipedia, “The United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy and unitary state consisting of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.”. The “three islands” in the Chinese expression refers to the three constituent countries of the British mainland: England, Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland is geographically separated from the British mainland and is therefore omitted in the expression.

But I never use this expression to refer to the United Kingdom though.

By: First tone

First tone — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:19:45 +0000

Yeah, that’s the fun part of learning Chinese. When you take a break from the constant memorizing and just sit and ponder over characters and expressions. You are so right about the language itself being vehicle of culture. And if you thought that it is easy to translate from one language to another, when you – as a westerner – start learning Chinese you quickly realise that isn’t so. Each word suddenly heavy with layer upon layer of cultural meaning.
I find that I (and others, whether they admit it or not) become a slightly different person when I speak/live in different languages. Body languages change. The things I have done in other languages that I wouldn’t dream of doing in my mother tounge. Like when I, at times, frustrated by not being able to find the words to express my opinion in the foreign language, end up expressing an opinion I c a n express. Regardless if it is what I think or not.
Fascinating is also the gap between languages – thoughts that has not yet become words or characters.
Keep it up, we want to read more!

By: uln

uln — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 05:43:00 +0000

I have been looking around and I think the best explanation is, like usual, on the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Mandarin#Tones

Anyone has better links I can add?

By: uln

uln — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 04:45:38 +0000

Hi Baruk,

Thanks for your comment. I suppose you are not a student of Chinese, otherwise this tone question would be obvious to you. I will explain a bit below for the benefit of non chinese speakers:

Chinese is a tonal language, which means that it uses tones to differentiate syllables that are otherwise identical in pronunciation. These “tones” are exactly that, tones in the musical sense of the word, each involving a particular pattern of high pitch – low pitch. You can find more and some audio samples in the links below.

In mandarin there are 4 main tones plus the light one, so 5 in total. English obviously is not subject to tones and in theory you are free to use the pitch of your voice to express feelings or other connotations. We sometimes call that the “tone” of your speech, which is confusing because it is not the same as the “tones” in mandarin discussed above.