Comments on: Google vs. China: All the possible WHYs?

By: Googles mistake leaving China | CHINAYOUREN

Googles mistake leaving China | CHINAYOUREN — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:19:23 +0000

[...] never had any doubt of the non-business nature of their decision, and, in spite of our poll’s results, I am convinced it was based on the personal, ethical and political convictions of the [...]

By: iPhonAsia.com » Blog Archive » Google’s China gambit less about censorship and more about defense of IP

Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:16:04 +0000

[...] around the Net, as plausible yet in need of further corroboration. Read more details > here and > here Update: Now both PBS and CNET have jumped on the “internal spies” story; Sources familiar with [...]

By: Wiln

Wiln — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 14:39:06 +0000

Google has strong ties to the intelligence community, which would suggest that there is much more to this story.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/30/BUQLUAP8L.DTL

http://gcn.com/articles/2008/04/01/feds-on-board-with-online-apps.aspx

http://developmentseed.org/blog/2009/aug/07/integrating-50-centimeter-data-national-geospatial-intelligence-agency

https://www1.nga.mil/Pages/Default.aspx

By: spandrell

spandrell — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 09:35:53 +0000

Let’s hope the truth comes out, this is to big to be forgotten.

This link from ESWN is also interesting

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-01-13/chinas-secret-cyber-terrorism/full/

I don’t know if its accurate or FBI has the habit of exaggerating things, but if it is true… its amazing. Like, China has been grooming a generation of hackers that have become the biggest and best hacker army in the world, and are capable of wreaking havoc at will.

Feels like some strange secret-sect from Dune.

By: Uln

Uln — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 09:19:12 +0000

You are right. The IP protection hypothesis gains strength. Google leaders were scared, or pissed off, or a combination of both.

But remember the ESWN post is just a rumour. LEt’s see if more news come out to confirm this.

By: spandrell

spandrell — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:57:28 +0000

“Isn’t it OBVIOUS that Google had CCP spies all along?”

Uhmm I wouldn’t think Google was aware the government was actively sending spies inside. Anyway, if you think its possible, how can you avoid that? Some people in Google China HAVE to have clearance to some important data that Google doesn’t want in the CCP’s hands. If Google was aware of moles it can’t possibly function in China in any way from the start.

It makes sense that Google wasn’t aware of that, it noticed last week and it freaked out. The Google Blog post certainly looks rushed and scared.

By: Uln

Uln — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:44:09 +0000

Interesting.

I know about the cloud, I was actually in the Google Shanghai offices only 1 month ago attending a conference about the cloud. I am in the nerd industry as well:)

But I don’t see how leaving China makes the cloud any safer. All they have to do is implement the cloud in their American offices and databanks, not in the Chinese ones (anyay there is not databank here).

I see the point that for the cloud it is essential that we all trust 100% google’s integrity, and it might be a risk in terms of image to be in China. An image of stout protector of activists and IP will give G an advantage when the real fight starts for cloud computing… good point.

And yet, that is part of the business hypothesis, and Schmidt himself has denied it is business reasons… I mean, sure you got a point that integrity will be essential for Google, but there are other ways to demonstrate integrity without losing potentially half the internet market!

Besides to use the cloud it is not only integrity that we ask, it is also reliability, predictability, solidity. By taking this kind of radical decisions and facing unnecessary risks, I am not sure the image of G as a reliable platform for our documents is really enhanced…

By: lark

lark — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:09:50 +0000

I was talking to a friend of mine tonight about this and we are both in the industry and the reason is obvious. Here you go.

Google want to own the ‘cloud’. (Look up: cloud computing.) That is their expansive vision of the future. They are leading the consumer and computing as a whole to the ‘cloud’.

Google is in a position to own -not search! forget search!- the cloud, and the future of computing.

For that reason they must protect the integrity of the cloud. They cannot allow China to destroy the integrity of the cloud through political censorship and attack and hacking and malware: their vision of the future is at stake.

And if Google owns the cloud, China loses.

Because China, in no way, Baidu or no Baidu, has the technology or innovative culture to make an alternate, world dominant, cloud.

By: Uln

Uln — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 06:49:23 +0000

Wow, interesting info, thanks. I am updating the post.

My first impression is that it is very possibly true. And yet…

Isn’t it OBVIOUS that Google had CCP spies all along? I mean, the kind of people that work in Google are the first of the best universities, like 90% of that kind of people are members of the party here. The surprising thing would have been that there was NO moles in Google China…

I don’t think the big deal is whether there were moles or not. Whether the hacks were done through moles or through other means is secondary, what is essential to the issue here is the Magnitude of those hacks, and the Evidence G has, and the othe Companies involved.

By: spandrell

spandrell — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 06:02:24 +0000

Check out ESWN, they have a post their saying that a mole from the government became a programmer for Google and stole some important code.
It makes a lot of sense to me.

By: Baide

Baide — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 04:23:18 +0000

Uln,
Interesting analysis, but I’m going to offer an alternative opinion. Recently, I’ve been heavily influenced by the twitter user AndrewShanghai who blogs at Chinese negotiator. In particular, his focus on the fractured web seems very apt for the current situation. Although you write, that a global company needs a chinese presence, what if that’s not the case? Currently, from my perspective it appears as if the Chinese internet is turning into (turned) a walled garden. The attributes that helps a company to succeed in the walled garden may not help them succeed in the rest of the worlds internet markers. So by moving away from China google ends up not being constrained by the same forces that hit the other companies in the chinese market. It may even make Google more competitive than Yahoo Microsoft or others in the rest of the internet markets around the world. Still, these developments make me sad, since I think we’ve probably passed the high point of connectedness between cultures as China reverts more into its insular shell.

By: kaplanpop

kaplanpop — Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:48:14 +0000

I agree and that’s exactly my point: Perhaps the thinking behind this is that, as things stand now, by being there, they not only help the web being more open, as they initially thought, but rather enhanced the government position of increasing the barriers (this we might agree with or not, but it is a valid POV). And a market is not just about the size, but also the conditions you can operate in.

Hence the new approach, which we can argue is or not the right one to achieve it, but in fairness, nobody (that I know) of the size and global significance of Google has tried this before, so it will be at least interesting to see what the long term outcome is going to be.

For a start, other than the obvious statement from CCP that in order to operate in China you have to follow its laws and understand its culture, they have been kind of mild so far, and I really was expecting harsh reactions. Perhaps they just do not care too much about Google, but I doubt it.