中国是最困难的语言
2009年11月20日,书面Julen马达里亚加来自于生活的每一个学生的普通话点时,他觉得写的语言困难的呼叫。 时间终于来到了,我的 主人,我会按照路径 。 事实上,我打算走得更远。 我证明,中国是世界上最困难的语言。
我知道我危险的地面上行走,日语学习者节是一定要在我爱上所有其declensions的重量。 为了使这是一个公平的游戏,我会先定义我理解的困难:一个普通人需要的时间没有以前接触相关语言,实现一个功能的水平,其中功能理解为能够执行每一个正常的活动,在普通话没有明显的缺点,如:写论文,举办正式会议,以正常速度阅读,在嘈杂的酒吧聊天。 我以我的法语作为这个级别的标准衡量自己的水平。
当然,这个标准和“重大缺点”的整体概念是主观的和难以衡量,但对这个职位的目的,它应该是足够的。 请注意,这里的关键因素是实用工具 :我特意关注较少,如口音方面只要在正常的沟通方式,因为它没有得到支付。 原因是,我考虑到语言作为沟通工具,而不是一个标志的状况,出身或其他可能的功能。 在中国,任何可能使用模仿口音失去了大多数外国人,因为五官立即给他们带走。
除了口音,像中国古典的重要领域给予我的“功能性”的定义,重量很少,原因很明显。 它是真实的,通过这个定义,我削弱我而言,最困难的语言,但我们可以负担得起的,因为我们最强大的武器仍然在储备。
还有一件事之前,我继续:这次演习已经试过很多次了,喜欢这里 , 在 这里和这里 。 我忽略了以前的结果,因为他们这样作为老师的看法或某些常规参数没有任何在现实生活中的使用比较标准。 每名学生可以自由选择他自己定义的困难和功能水平,但在我看来,在这个岗位,总结,大多数人自然会是一个“ 的水平,需要在本地环境中使用的语言无缝”接受。
我的论点如下通过3个阶段的学习中文的过程:首先,我证明,中国是容易的,然后我证明,这是很难的。 最后,我会放弃的原因,中国是世界上最难的语言。 如果您已经熟悉学习普通话,你可能想直接跳到第三章。
中文是容易
简单的汉语语法和单词的第一个列表在一个基本水平,容易发音和记忆(音)在非常温和的学习曲线。 我已经多次在西班牙学习西班牙语的学生比较,几乎总是在中国普通话的学生更快地开始使用简单的句子。 除了语言本身,我怀疑,对中国的好奇和健谈的性质是它的一个重要组成部分。
如果你已经在中国已经足够长的时间,你可能已经看到一些学生,了解到中国在1年的奇迹。 我会见了一些他们自己,并在某些情况下,我对结果感到惊讶。 这些人基本上是自然的传播者,他们并不需要的色调或人物,因为他们使用普通话,这是上下文中非常强大的工具。 他们的语调和身体语言的信息渠道万吨,使他们能够受理带几个小时就结束中国的成人,而你坐在那里恨恨地想知道哪里放了。 这是一个真实的故事,顺便。
当然,不是每个人都可以成为这样一个伟大的传播者,但这里的要点是:一个人的某种和为某种目标,中国其实也可以在浸泡时了解到一个简单的语言。 这是一种肤浅的层面上被称为当你听到有人说:“他讲14种语言的流利”。 它只是最基本的字符,几乎没有语法和长期无音记忆的日常词汇列表。 这是行不通的,甚至靠近我的功能级别的定义,但它是有用的,有益的,对于大多数人来说,这是他们所需要的。
正是出于这个原因,每个外国人来中国,特别是好奇和交际的,我强烈建议学习中国的谈话没有字符。 在这第一个层次,它具有经济意义,他们认真研究。
由于长时间暴露在说普通话的环境,一个喇叭没有字符可以去很长的路要走。 然而,严重的学生普通话,非字符的路径是不可持续的。 除其他原因,因为它会使其无法读写,有效地离开了限制大面积的知识。
中文是难
步入下一阶段之前,潜在的学生应该三思。 因为它需要时间的投资比例几乎任何其他语言的研究,甚至等复杂的事业,例如,获得博士学位。 在绝大多数情况下,它没有经济意义,它根本就不是一个理性的选择。 所以,如果你决定去那里,只是确保你有不合理的动机。
在这个阶段中出现的困难,如字符和声调,已优秀的文章 上面 提到的 ,所以我不会赘述。 我只想强调的因素的背景和相互依存的,我觉得有时被低估。 的想法,总结,是这样的:这两个diabolically中国口头和书面的困难代码变得更加困难,因为他们往往是不能自我在学生的头脑,但依靠相互学习,然后他们都依赖于上下文的一个很好的协议。
这是该系统的最荒谬的部分,因为直觉人会想象,(半)表意文字的脚本是从语音独立。 事实是,他们不仅没有独立的,但整个系统的效率低下,中国人自己很大程度上依赖于他们的口语语言来解释字符。 这就解释了,例如,为什么它是那么容易提出与字符的平均中国不能读,或为什么他们可以读1报纸知道只有2000 *字符,但你不能,他们成功地使用他们的口语语言要记住/猜缺少的字符。
在其他方向,对书面材料的依赖,学会说话是很常见的任何第二语言,作为能够读取在发音显著的方式的话,使他们更容易记住。 在中国现有的材料,在适当的拼音(与tonemarks拉丁字母)几乎是零,和一些字母和声调的趋势,不同地区之间,使得它几乎不可能学习他们正确只是从听。 更糟的是,自己是中国人的扬声器上的字符来解决歧义,往往是与人民和地方,或当他们解释了一个新词的名称:“我的名字是江,”他们说,“美女子江“,指的字符姜2部分。 含糊不清往往发生在很多像普通话的语境语言,更当一个外国人参与。
这个讲话和写作之间的相互影响,有许多中国特有的其他后果:例如,它是不可能写下来,甚至读外来词,没有一个人物的先进知识,很难理解书面形式,并在谈话中都熟悉的名字。
所有这些因素(以及其他许多我没有提到)为外国人提供的极其困难的学习环境。 这是最主要的原因是不可能达到功能级别后,口头和书面语言上的一种平衡的方法,加上沉浸在中国文化。 它解释了为什么一个字符的渊博知识的汉学家永远不会说话的语言功能 ,也不旧中国双手语文沉浸在几十年的生活。 他们都站在同一条腿比别人短的摇晃平台。
总之,学习中国的努力是类似2,需要并行**追求不同的语言学习。 与这两种语言是一个很大的困难比法国(英语为母语)。
然而,这仍未能打动日本,已经磨他们的武士刀来后,我的头的学生。 我会承认,到了这里,日语仍然有一个很好的机会击败普通话。 移动到下一节看到我的将军。
中国是世界上最困难的语言
现在是,当我们进入第三阶段,在功能级别的学生,没有任何“重大缺点”与母语相比。 至于我担心的是,这个阶段只是假设:我从来没有见过一个外国人到了那里。 我不是说这个人不存在,我只是说,在中国3年后,我还没有遇到任何,就是它是多么难得。
在既定标准的措施方面,我可以词组,它想:我仍然不能满足水平的一个单一的外国人,能说流利的中国竞争,与我在法国自己的水平,这是我的第四语言,作为一个成年人学习在3年内在法国度过的。 我有一个口音和一些人造阿美族 ,但我可以读取和写入,快速和复杂的,任何类似的背景,我的法国同事,我不记得我最后一次在电视上的东西没有得到。 我挑战任何人给我弄一个非中国本土的扬声器,可以说或写,就像我在法国做,甚至在水平相当。 对不起,如果我听起来自大,我只是写,因为它是基础的论点如下。
但是,让我们到这个职位的实际点:为什么中国在世界上最困难的语言?
这种说法的主要依据,做词汇。 我认为,在大多数学习汉语的研究,这个因素已经大大低估。 在我看来,它是唯一最重要的一个学生去功能级别的障碍。 之前,我解释为什么,让我给一些背景:
在原产地,有深厚的文化原因,从事实上,中国作为一个文明的摇篮,其扬声器。 实际上,它可以精确地说,中国是人类文明的摇篮之一,并一直保持一种活的语言,这一天只有一个。 语言学家会说,语言已经改变,因为商代时代完全,但是这是一个纯技术性的反对。 文化上,它仍然是相同的人相同的语言,它是这种感觉的扬声器,这带来了一系列的态度,是中国特有的。
这些“态度”,包括不承认拉丁或希腊文化参考,并推而广之,不接受在英语或其他外国基层创造的新词。 这是问题的核心。 这使得事情,学习汉语的外国人,也为中国人学习外国语言极其困难。 和它的影响超越了语言学习的范围。
关于普通话的学生的实际后果,考虑这个问题:需要获得一个标准的语言水平的积极词汇,例如,最高水平的汉语水平考试,通常需要的词汇,包含不超过几千字,这是更足够日常一般的谈话。 然而,我曾见过的HSK11人甚至没有接近我的法国竞争。
原因是受过高等教育的人,被动词汇真正需要达到的功能水平是比任何能力的标准测试中所需的词汇。 载体 , 离子或形而上学的思考。 这些话都没有进入,因为在理论上,他们是技术术语,但他们出现在正常的谈话,你承认他们预计,即使你不知道, 真的是什么离子词汇的标准列表。 你一生内的文化生活,通过收购这些话。
那么,发生了什么事,我的法语吗? 很显然,我刚刚学会相处的几千字,从此它是非常容易,因为已经知道我的大部分专业词汇广大口袋。 ,这是因为,一旦你已经学会了解码语音和语法,并一定程度以上的词汇,所有的语言在世界上成为几乎相同,除了中国,这是。
和作为一个中国这个分化的结果,对于大多数人来说,要实现功能级别的唯一可行的方法是花了一辈子浸泡,以获取那些没有在语言学校学习的所有领域的词汇,只能学到通过经验。 总之,为学生成为功能将采取以下三个阶段以上:
- 出色的沟通能力,人才和动机。
- 多年的全日制学习,学习阅读和写作。
- 10年左右甚至更长的时间 - 分钟吗? - 100%沉浸在中国。
从本质上讲,我们说的是一名专门向中国人作为一个职业生涯中,谁拥有人才的语言和谁住总多年的中国环境。 这不是不可能的,这个人的存在,我们甚至可能有人在下面描述的意见。 但结合在一个人的3个条件是极为罕见的,为广大学生,在中国的功能水平将永远是遥不可及。
对不起长后,我写了挫折的一天,当我卡在中间含有离子治疗的句子,部分原因是因为离子,离子(li2zi3)字像许多其他的技术的话,不给你任何线索时,它是物理学方面。 我希望看到日本(谁是相当不错说:“离子”的发音)要回答这个。 将军。
和中国是世界上最困难的语言赢得了可疑的荣誉。
注意事项:
*已经很多讨论关于这一点,数量可能是错误的。 点是,即使当你知道更多的字符比是土生土长的中国人,他 将仍然是能读得更好,比你快。 这是令人沮丧的。
**我使用的术语在这里非常松散,写中国本身并不是一种语言,而是代表了中国。 这是不是真的学习2种语言,但我觉得这比较有用的,需要将你的头存储的原始数据量的感觉。
聚苯乙烯。 如果你感兴趣,在这次辩论中,看到的总结,并希望更明确的岗位在这里 。
















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我说两种语言(日语及中文),我不会说中国人要困难得多。 它肯定更容易发言中间水平。 但是,正式的书面语言是很难的。
不过日本使用混合技术的中文和英文,并书面系统是纯粹的疯狂。 然而又一个非常统一的语言,而中国不是。 添加到困难,我相信,中国的区域差异。
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ULN回复:
2009年11月20日下午07:12
我这里的要点是,中国是非常高的水平,以达到与复杂的词汇流畅,即使在最专业的领域的国际世界的障碍是比大多数人认为的要大得多。
在这个意义上说,中国是比日本更加困难,并按照我的逻辑,这是最困难的语言。 在年底,中国与日本的竞争取决于真的对你有什么目标时,学习语言,你想你的词汇量是多么复杂。
该职位的真实信息是:中国是比大多数人的想象,如果你想获得一个高层次的困难。
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“一旦你学会了解码语音和语法,并一定程度以上的词汇,所有的语言在世界上成为几乎相同,除了中国”
- 你的意思是“世界中的所有语言”? 斯瓦希里? 马来人呢? 韩国人? 日本? 泰国? 越南? ......这是毫不奇怪,印欧语和浪漫的语言有着大量的词汇(我听说,西班牙和法国的份额80%的话,类似语法男女!)由于历史的原因。 但他们是“世界语言”吗?
“因为离子,离子(li2zi3)字像许多其他的技术的话,不给你任何有关技术性的线索。”
- 其实是一个线索:在字符子:分子(分子),原子(原子)。 我觉得子一般都可以用来表示粒子组成单词。
“在不同文化之间的沟通的后果不能被忽略,最终的语言有很多,我们看到中国和西方之间的冲突和误解的重要作用。”
- 有效的语句。 然而,它不会有很多工作要做,与中国的技术术语(知觉)混浊。 误传在这种情况下,我认为主要来自扬声器构造他们的论据说服他们的观众的目的 - 作为一个概括,中国往往诉诸情感和权力,而印欧/浪漫扬声器倾向于呼吁理性和逻辑。
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迎宾:我承认,我不知道所有的语言在世界,我对这个职位的所有信息的问题,我问人学习日语,俄语的朋友,也是我自己knowledg巴斯克语,西班牙语,德语,普通话和法语。
我还没有发现任何一种语言,有国外这么几个方面,作为中国人,但我承认有可能在那里,这就是为什么我希望有人看到这篇文章将帮助。
你应该牢记一件事,然而,这是只有在世界上最发达的汉语语言真的有所有的技术词汇的范围,因为他们有足够多的扬声器和发展他们的读者。 100S在世界上的语言,很少有机会到有意义的离子有一个字。 给你一个例子,巴斯克人,即使它是一个非常不同的语言,也表示离子,metafisika和bektor。 这是不可能的,任何其他语言将是足够强大(或疯狂)去中国的方式,也许除了阿拉伯语......想到这,多少种语言,大部分的研究论文被翻译? 大多数情况下只有一个:英语,如果他们不已经在该语言威滕。
尽管这一切,我承认的说法是有弱点,我会尽量看。
回复:法语和西班牙语都非常相似:这是事实,但它不会影响的主要论点。 我只需要3个月的研究,也许是10个月,差点要了我的实际水平得到充分浸泡。 (大概,我不能真正记得)在日本,这也许会增加至4年的研究和浸泡,或者甚至更多,我不知道。 但问题是,你会达到的水平,整个事情是自立的,因为你不会需要重新学习所有的语言,科学,技术和较高的一般知识。
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雷回复:
2011年8月29日上午在7:57
ULN作为一个事实上,不仅中国这样做的。 德国是另一种语言,往往翻译外国条款使用本机根。 事实上,如果你想想看,外国语言为依托的技术术语,是不是一个真正的合乎逻辑的事情开始。 英语几乎完全依赖于希腊和拉丁美洲的技术术语。 对于以英语为母语,这些基本上是国外的无感(如耳石=耳的石头。所以为什么不干脆说耳石??)。 生物学导论作为教练,我觉得这是技术方面,从国外的根源,防止青少年至少在英语世界的传播,知识的导入/建设的这种做法。
在亚洲,中国中间演奏拉丁/希腊用得上的作用,在过去的千年(我想这是你观察到的“态度”)。 这就是为什么日本,韩国,越南等含有大量从中国根构造的话。 因此,你所描述的是英语学习法语的扬声器容易,会更媲美日本的扬声器,努力学习普通话/粤语,许多基层有密切相关的含义。 事实上,因为字符忠实地记录了一个字的根,所以无论声音的变化,根可以更容易确定比英语和法语词汇的同源。
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关于离子:OK,子的线索是很难赶上的,因为有在子完成几百个字,是在粒子领域。 它实际上是一种极为常见的结局,甚至哲学家的名字是老子。 相信我,我知道完美的原子或分子的意义,但问题是,我也知道胖子的日子,孔子...
这就是为什么我说中国是非常上下文,我的主要问题是,我读了我的健身房愚蠢的前景将是一个有表达,如离子治疗。 我woudl已经猜到了,这是一个粒子,如果它在一个物理文本WS,但实际上,它在健身房传单是不可能的!
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关于最后一点:“有效的语句。 然而,它不会有很多工作要做,与中国的技术术语(知觉)混浊。 误传在这种情况下,我认为主要来自扬声器构造他们的论据说服他们的观众的目的 - 作为一个概括,中国往往诉诸情感和权力,而印欧/浪漫扬声器倾向于呼吁理性和逻辑。 “
迎宾,我不是说,语言是误传的唯一原因,甚至不是最大的原因。 我只说这是一个因素,它可能是一个,这是最容易改变的政治家。
我的技术术语的一点是,他们越来越多,往往在正常谈话,即使非专家之间,是指一些类似的概念作为隐喻somtimes。 它是作为文化参照相同,除了技术的引用将增加技术成为更多我们生活的一部分,而传统的参考教育部可能下降或保持稳定。
这就是为什么,即使我承认,不理解高层次上,是不是沟通的重要原因,它实际上是越来越多的原因,分开来自世界各地的中国。
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好吧,我会说的词“等离子体”传达我更有意义的信息比“等离子”,与同等数量的不同类型的离子体.......嗯,台湾翻译为“电浆”“等离子体”。
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我认为韩国是强硬。 韩国是边缘不可能的发音,如果你说一个字甚至略有错误,没有人会理解你,因为韩国不是用来口音。 哦,再有类似发言10水平,取决于说话的人,人听之间的关系。
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韩国作为中国人发音并不难,而不是通过远。
发言水平是一道坎,但再日本有过,它如果不复杂。 反正是一个外国人免除部分之一。
与韩国的问题是你有没有中文字符来指导你,所以你要记住,通过声音的一切。
ULN,我明白你的意思,但在该水平(专业领域)日本大概是70%的中国血统的词汇比30%英语,我相信韩国是类似的。
我听说,泰米尔人也使用现代概念唯一的本地话,虽然我不能确认自己。
我发现日本更容易学习,因为学习的乐趣,即有大量生动有趣的材料挂钩自己,直到你还挺流利。 中国的流行文化是不是有吸引力,但其作为一个整体的文化参与不够。 我想学习印地文或爪哇一个受过教育的水平会更难,即更无聊。
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凯文回复:
2009年11月24日下午12:15
“我发现日本更容易学习,因为学习的乐趣,即有大量生动有趣的材料挂钩自己,直到你还挺流利的”< - 这个。 (或至少是普通话)与中国最大的困难之一是,有很少的有趣的内容,你想观看即使你没有刻意提高你的中国。 张艺谋电影和它的一个极少数 - 我看在中国读/翻译。 像法国或日本的东西相比,它是一个真正的斗争。
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在我的水平,我不断成渝折磨。 当有人扔在一些不起眼的成渝,当我阅读一卷接受记者采访时或某事上,我有我达到“无泪”一书的成渝,这是特别令人沮丧。
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ULN回复:
2009年11月21日,2:55上午
在你的水平吗? 啊,chengyus是在每一个级别的噩梦! 即使中国不明白他们的所有。
这是唯一的因素很多,我没有提后,以避免使10000字!
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丹 - 我,一个上午Spandrell。 韩国在世界上,确保最困难的语言之一,但它有两个巨大的优势,相对于中国:1 - 语音脚本2 - 国外贷款。 你必须得到进入中国的研究远远不够,要实现这个意义。
spandrell - “,但日本在这一水平(专业领域)可能是70%和30%的原产于中国的词汇” -
这是一个点,我需要更好地验证了一下,我的朋友学习日语不够先进,知道这个。 我猜测,这取决于你指望什么样的词汇水平,可能更现代化/科学词汇英语的贷款。 我chos的3个例子,形而上学,离子载体的记录是在日本的所有贷款,我没有选择他们的目的(我检查后aftr书面)
在任何情况下,比赛中国/日本后仅仅是一个噱头,使更多的乐趣。 说实话,我不认为过多讨论这个问题是有意义的,因为最终它取决于许多个人因素,如每个学生的裁判能力的集合,其特定的目标,在学习语言时,等
我希望能在后的实际点是中国经常被低估的困难。 ,而造成这一困难的一部分由中国人自己故意拒绝使用贷款,他们从世界其他地区隔离。 的情况下,我们确认对日本的发言,然后将2种语言,从自己的世界隔离。 这不解决问题,使中国的非贷款方式。
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感谢您对这篇文章和链接,连接中国人是如何努力。 我读了2个小时只在第一个环节的笑。 finally i see:
“Shh — not so loud!” says the director, “If you don't tell them it's difficult, they never know.”
so now i know, i'll read on if i have time tomorrow.
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For a Westerner learning another Western language will definitely be much easier. It's like comparing a Japanese learning Chinese and vice versa. The European languages had a lot in common. It's almost like comparing the different region of China learning another regional language. In fact, these regional dialects will be a national language if it is a country, just like Europe. Furthermore, it would probably be easier for an Asian learning another Asian language than to learn a Western language. I am not saying Chinese is not difficult to learn, but your argument is purely based on a Westerner point of view.
I hope when you said “all the languages in the World”, you don't mean languages of Europe.
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Uln Reply:
November 21st, 2009 at 11:21 am
No, I really mean it “all the languages in the World”. This is NOT based on a Westerners point of view.
The only exceptions you might argue are Japanese and Korean, but even those languages for the most modern vocabulary usually comes from the West rather than from China.
Please bear in mind that when I said “all the languages in the World” I added “above a certain level of vocavulary”. This “certain level” is NOT THE SAME in all languages. For example, lower between French/Spanish (where similarities start very early) than between Spanish/English (where phrasal verbs and germanic roots go up a long way until they give way to latin).
The “certain level” would be even higher between English/Thai, for example, would include only words that are very modern or sophisticated, and so on the more different the languages the higher the “certain level”.
Still, my point is that there is always a lot of common vocabulary above that level, and that most languages in the World are very easy to master past one certain tipping point, whereas Chinee is not because you have to relearn EVERYTHING again. We are speaking of course of high level learners, not of your average student of Chinese.
希望这个澄清。
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我只是在功能级别,您在中国的描述。 虽然我同意,中国是非常困难的,我不同意,这是低估了。 事实上,它被夸大了。 国务院正式列为最困难的语言为英语的人学习,并支持这一观点的声音远远超过许多反对的。
总之,对借词来看,中国的语言,语素和基于字符结构的方式,使贷款的话很难。 但是,当涉及到技术,许多外来词渗入口语,而在写作中使用原有的汉语词语。 人们说,“电子邮件”,但他们写“甸子又尖又”的。 有趣的是,新的科技术语的词源经常如下英语的词源。 他们不使用的希腊语和拉丁语的根源,他们用希腊和拉丁词根的含义。
下面是一些例子:
下载 - 夏哉“向下”和“负荷”
SMS - 段鑫 - 短消息
处理器 - chuli气处理装置
不胜枚举,而语言是不是听起来像其他语言,逻辑语言与他人融合。
还请注意,口头和书面语言的版本从来没有比他们紧密联系起来,收盘又一次与西方语言的差距。
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@ xiefeilaga - 好评,感谢该。 答案:
轻描淡写:OK,我没有想到国务院或专业语言学家,显然他们知道他们正在谈论什么。 我在想,数千人来到中国,和想象他们要在一两年的语言学习。 我也想在巴塞罗那官方语言学校,那里有5类充满乐观的学生在第一年,和了6年的时候,它有5家伙一样,即使是那些家伙不接近功能。
重新贷款:是的,好点的。 但也有许多不遵循逻辑的例子。 我不知道你在哪里,但我在上海听到“又尖又”比“电子邮件”。
然而,最重要的反对是这样的:你的例子是类似的反对离子上面,你发现它很明显,因为你已经知道它的家伙。 我的意思是:如果你听到“chuliqi”是不是电脑专门在一次谈话中,你从来没有听说过这个词前,那么它是没有明显的:它是一个处理器? 这是一些其他类型工业的一部分,就像一个“处理叉”或某种车“停车场”自动付款机,自动售货机像机? 在大多数情况下并不明显(虽然承认“chuliqi”是比较容易弄清楚)。
无论如何,你有好点的融合与语言逻辑,假设它真的发生了。 这确实减轻问题,我sugest,这是值得一提的。 该职位的最后一部分是在草案仍然所以我会加入这个当我完成它的明天。
回复:最后一段。 我不明白你的意思,通过口头和书面版本更接近现在。
PS>出于好奇,因为你声称只是功能级别:你有多少多年来致力于研究中国,多少生活在中国,以达到这一水平吗? 你有任何接触与普通话在童年/校期间?
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I go with Xiefeilaga on the logic of word composition. I've just recently done a lab internship in China and one in France and I found it similarily difficult/easy to get the technical terms in both languages. After all, the French are shooing Anglicism and saying ADN instead of DNA requires just as much learning as saying 核酸。 What's more, the French use all kinds of rather complex verbs in science, while the Chinese stay with standard verbs like 来 and 去 for nearly everything. And just as Xiefeilaga said, the logic in word composition really helps you to understand what you're reading about – instead of just seeing the term and having a “general concept” of it.
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DNA = ADN, it is the same word, the difference is just grammar, not vocabulary, because in French the noun (Acid) comes before its modifier (Deoxyribonucleic). It is the same as with most abbreviations, like the UN, which is NU in French. Francky speaking Mei-Mei, I cannot believe that someone seeing “Nations Unies” could not understand “United Nations”. I know that it can be confusing the first time you see this inversion, but when you have seen it once then you know the trick and that it is not a difficulty anymore, it is MUCH EASIER than learning 核酸 which looks very simple to you because you already know that word. But now tell me, how do you say RNA in Chinese?
The verbs that French use in science are almost always exactly the same as English or most other Western languages. Such as magnetiser, precipiter, solidifier, saturer, synthetiser… can you give some examples of what you mean?
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If you want to know the reason you and the others posting here find their chosen languages of study difficult, you're looking right at it. You're spending all your time analyzing and complaining about it. Chinese is the most spoken human language on earth. That right there should disprove your argument that it is the most difficult language in the world. In those billions of people there are sure to be millions upon millions of snotty 5 year olds who can speak circles around you because instead of going online to whine they immersed themselves, listened intently to their parents, watched Chinese TV, found other Chinese playmates, etc., etc.. There are almost certainly millions upon millions of 10 year olds who can write circles around you for similar reasons.
No language is inherently harder than another. It's simply a matter of shutting up and letting yourself get lost in the language. I know from personal experience, I've been immersing myself in Japanese ever since I finished up a year abroad there last year. In a grand total of a year and a half of learning the language, I can read a newspaper and converse with all the Japanese students on campus about almost anything. If you have time to complain about a language then you have time to get good at a language.
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@Uln:
I'll start with my language background, which actually kind of strengthens your point. I've been living in China for nine years now, and I started out with some pretty intense and well thought-out training. Over the years I have held several positions in Chinese companies, using the language every day in a business setting, and I've been translating for artists, writers and filmmakers for a long time as well. I believe that if the language is taught in the right way, one can gain basic proficiency in the classroom, but fluency can only be gained through real immersion.
And on to the question about spoken and written languages. For centuries, there was little resemblance between spoken and written Chinese. Written Chinese, beyond simple things like shop signs and menus, was extremely difficult and abstract, a pursuit for only the highly educated. While the spoken language of the Zhou dynasty was probably quite different from modern putonghua, it is impossible to imagine people actually speaking like the language written in the Dao De Jing.
The baihua movement, which began in the early twentieth century, encouraged people to write in vernacular Chinese for the first time in history. A similar thing happened to the European languages hundreds of years ago with books like the Gutenberg Bible and Canterbury Tales. While there are still quite a few differences between written and spoken Chinese, most written Chinese is now based on spoken constructs, though it is often a little more formal and writers can abbreviate a bit thanks to the added visual context of the characters. This helped spread literacy, as Chinese speakers now only have to learn the characters to be able to read (a daunting task in itself), rather than learning an entirely different grammatical system.
On technical terms, I don't think any languages have built-in clues that the word you're looking at is a technical term. That all comes from the speaker's “sense of language” (语感), the ability to make inferences from context, intuition and the like. That is why you can pick up the technical terms in French and English. Your intuitive knowledge of Greek and Latin roots applied to your language experience fills in the rest.
I didn't learn terms like “processor” from some Chinese lesson book, I learned it at the computer market, trying to buy a computer. He would say things like “what kind of chuli qi do you want”, and because we were in that context, I was able to figure out that he meant processor.
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Hi Joe, you are right: You learn a language faster if you spend 100% of your time learning or speaking it. And to the extent that this is true, you might also say that if I stop blogging, leave my job and completely lose all links with my Western life, then I would learn faster. Well, congratulations Einstein, but that is not the point of this post at all.
This is not a whining post, on the contrary, I really enjoy studying Chinese. I write this post because I wanted to make an interesting point (for me at least) about the understated importance of specialized passive vocabulary when learning a language.
“No language is inherently harder than another”: Not having a phonetic script is objectively and inherently more difficult than having it. Chinese is the ONLY LANGUAGE in the World that does not use a phonetic script. People please understand this before you speak. Even for the Chinese , their written language is very difficult to learn.
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@Xiefeilaga –
Thanks for sharing your experience. That is basically 9 years of total immersion, including serious study that I take to be fulltime in the beginning. Admittedly less than what I stated as “living a lifetime”. But it is still a lifetime in the sense that Chinese is the central focus of your studies and career. Anyway, will edit this in the post.
Re: baihua, OK, thanks for clarification. I just thought you were referring to something else.
Re technical terms: interesting point. I more or less agree about the built-in clues and the sense of language. Admittedly, like Joe said above, there is nothing *inherently* more difficult in processor than in chuliqi.
But the central point in my post is not *inherent* difficulty, it is *relative* difficulty to those speakers that come from a Western based vocabulary. And the problem is that ALL SPEAKERS IN THE WORLD come from there, except Chinese. For example, in Japanese, processor is “porocesar”… There is no way that chuliqi can compete with that in simplicity, even if chuliqi is one of the least obscure technical terms.
Re: “I didn't learn terms like “processor” from some Chinese lesson book, I learned it at the computer market, trying to buy a computer.”
没错。 That is what I mean, you can only learn these things because you lived through the experience, you cant expect to learn that vocabulary in class becasue it is just too vast. This is what I meant by “you need to live a lifetime”.
This “lifetime” in your case is pretty short, partly I am guessing because you are very talented for languages. But also partly because you are underestimating my level of French. Think of this, my level of French in terms of specialized vocabulary is 100% a native level. Because ALL THE WORDS above a certain level are the same as English or as my native language.
In other words, I am still sure I can easily get you on specialized words that you need to look up in a dictionary, especially if I find a field where you didn't work as translator. In all honesty, off the top of your head, can you translate these terms below to Chinese?
polyurethane, calcium chloride, Arthur Rimbaud, Chaucer, chrome-vanadium, neoprene suit, dialectic materialism, distopya, matrix, political correctness, telepathy, platonic.
All of them are a no brainer for most languages in the world. I can't think so many good examples in different fields but you get the gist. Are you at that level really?
If you are, congratulations, you are the best foreign speaker of Chinese I have ever talked to
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Interesting that China Law is talking about Korean.
Recently the Koreans have to repave one section of their high-speed railway because the contractor mistake “water-proof” for “water-soaking” in their work instructions – for some reason these two are the same in the Korean spelling.
Guess the Koreans really messed up their language after they decided to turn to a phonetic system. On the other hand, Chinese and Japanese (not the street Japanese but the intellectual Japanese) retain the level of precision that can only matched by Latin.
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@Uln,
You're right about the terms in that way. I don't know all of them off the top of my head, though I've used just about all of them before, and am confident I would recognize every single one if you showed them to me in Chinese.
I would venture that most native English speakers don't know what chrome-vanadium is either, or any Chinese speakers for that matter. But just like an English speaker faced with this unfamiliar word, the Chinese speaker would know from a glance at the characters (铬钒刚), that it was a type of steel.
You do make a fair point, though. It is possible for an English speaker to reach that level of functionality in French, but not Chinese. In fact, native Chinese speakers don't ever really reach that level either, because of the nature of the language.
Your argument holds, but it is a highly conditional one. While it may be impossible for someone to reach the level where they can expect to understand every single specialized word, it is not impossible to reach the same fluency of a native-speaker, which is the goal for some of us in the first place. If I wanted to write a thesis about metal alloys, I could find a list of terms in a heartbeat. It's just an extra step in the process.
If we extracted the “must be able to write a thesis about metal alloys without a dictionary” part from your theory, you'd find that there are a lot of non-native speakers who can fulfill all the other requirements in Chinese fluency. Of course, you won't meet many of them in Shanghai, where immersion is hard to come by.
So, quickly, without consulting a dictionary, what is an “angle of repose”? (in English)
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Re Angle of repose: not the same. Neoprene suits or expanded poliurethane isolating material appears in common conversation. Chrome vanadium a bit less, but still everyone recognizes it as an alloy even without seeing it written. “Angle of repose” I have never even heard that, in spite of being an engineer!
You are right in this: There is a level of technicity above which vocabulary is irrelevant for the non specialists. But I think there is a very large area below that level, that is technical vocabulary and yet belongs to normal conversation, at least for people with a higher education.
Re: Shanghai: very true, that is why I find it frustrating!
Re: My argument against the existence of functional speakers. Yes, I agree with you that “impossible is nothing”, and that there must be a few people like you living in complete immersion who are very close to (or at) the functional level. My criteria would not be to translate a metal alloy book, but rather as simple as this: translate any general high-level text without using the dictionary.
In any case this -the impossibility or not of learning Chinese functionally- is not the main point I wanted to make, and I am willing to admit that I exagerated it in the post and to leave the discussion here. I also edited the conclusions of the post, and I am writing a new one to concentrate in the aspects that interest me more.
As a conclusion to our discussion I would say: for most languages, but ESPECIALLY for Chinese, full immersion is the only way to achieve (or approach?) functional level.
And Thanks!
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@Uln: full agreement on that last statement there. The only foreigners I've ever met with what I would call fluency in Chinese are those who have immersed themselves.
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Just read your second post which makes things a lot clearer. Not to mean that this one wasn't as good as everything you write!
But I insist: in German, we don't use the expressions you mentioned above in daily lab life (except for synthetiser). Having learned Latin and English, I would certainly understand them, but I understood you were talking about actually using them. And for that I would definitely have to hear the French expressions at least once – just as in Chinese.
On another note: what about Arabic?
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I know, German is a bit specific, especially in some fields like chemicals, philosophy and some branches of science. I think it might be due to the leading role of Germany when those fields where developed: the German language had to create words that didn't exist before. And I would guess that many of those terms were deliberately taken from Germanic roots rather than Latin, at a time when Germanic romanticism /nationalism was strong, in the 19th and first half of 20th century. This is only a guess though.
As a result, German is one of the languages that has the largest independent vocabulary, from what I have been able to judge. And yet, it is not even close to Chinese in this respect.
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I've never really liked the idea of the “most difficult language in the world,” but your post is the first I see that make an attempt at quantifying it. That's really interesting. I would say – if it wasn't for the characters – that Icelandic shares many of your points. It has really difficult grammar (more so than German, perhaps less than Russian) and there are almost no loanwords.处理器 is gjörvi which means something like “doer”. Not that obvious either.
I think you have to factor in the number of people studying the language. Imagine in 20 years' time, if China's rise succeeds, and Chinese becomes a world language (not to the same extent as English, but still). Will it still be as difficult to learn if so many people speak it?
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This quote from one of the links is just hilarious (and quite true):
“(…) classical Chinese really consists of several centuries of esoteric anecdotes and in-jokes written in a kind of terse, miserly code for dissemination among a small, elite group of intellectually-inbred bookworms who already knew the whole literature backwards and forwards, anyway.”
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WKL, yes, I enjoyed that paragraph as well.
Re the “most difficult language in the World” title, I agree with you, I don't like it either.
The only reason why I did that title is that lately I had few comments and I wanted to catch the eye of the users… it is pue marketing, LOL
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I've been studying Chinese for years and I wonder if I will EVER get to where I want to be::: you bi-linguals are SO lucky!
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After reading all of Ulns post I have decided to agree.
I, also spending over three years in China, have never met anyone who can speak fluently at a high level,(Da Shan not included).
Chengyus, writting ability, and an understanding of traditional characters are essential to fully grasp language.
Finally I will comment that this article should be titled differently.
Its main purpose is to defend Chinese is the most difficult language to learn, 'at the highest level', with that I will agree.
However, I still stick to my point that anyone with a little personality and witt will have little problem communicating in the language after some practice. And China is the place to practice!
There are much harder languages to learn at beginner levels- anyone ever tried pronoucing Thai or Lao? How about getting the jist of Farsi? As an English speaker I suffered a lot trying to learn the reflexive verbs of basic Spanish.
So Chinese is the most difficult language to learn at a higher level
同意
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@Dave: hey! I am not bilingual! Well, at least not in Chinese, LOL
@Kyle: Thanks for the support. I think most students of mandarin in this thread are glad to see Chinese crowned as Most Difficult Language on Earth. There is something reassuring in that, like it is always a handy excuse for lazy students…
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I found the local daily the best source for practising characters, and since most of the stuff on Chinese television is dubbed-over Korean/Japanese stuff . 。 。
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I'm also reminded of the problems that UK patent attorneys have in passing the European Qualifying Exam to practice as patent attorneys in Europe. Unlike their European counterparts most have not actually learned either French or German (which along with English make up the three languages used in European patent practice) and so have to muddle their way through patents written in German and French during the exam. Despite this about as many UK applicants pass as German/French, because the British simply look at the diagrams, look at the technical terms in the test documents, and make educated guesses as to what it all means. They can get along without knowing either French or German because above a certain level the terms used as mostly near-identical.
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是。 Now try a similar text in Chinese, and good luck. I am in the chemical industry and by now I know how to call the 50 most common chemcial products, but let me tell you there are hundreds of them, and not a single one is of Western origin.
One example: yixi is ethylene. How bout that?? LOL
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FOARP Reply:
December 3rd, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Just like you said, it can't be done. Working in patenting I had to stop and ask with pretty much every one of the technical terms, a simple thing like 光板 (a light diffuser board for a display) are guessable in context, but words like 碳纳米管 ('carbon nano-tube') and 梯形 ('T shaped' – ridiculous!) were both unguessable and uncheckable as they cannot be found in the dictionary.
However, I guess Joe above has found a magic secret that allows him to get around all this, or at least the entirely human urge to vent about it!
My one question, therefore, is how about Chinese immigrants to the west? There are an awful lot of Chinese people working in technical fields which require specialist vocabulary, many of them seem to be able to master English/French/German/etc. technical language, and whilst having a phonetic script with clearly separated words may make this easier, it can't be that hard – or can it?
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That's a good question: how about the Chinese who go to the the West. In my opinion this has a double answer:
1- Their problem is mitigated because Western languages use latin alphabet not characters, this makes things easier.
2- In spite of #1, they do have a lot of trouble with high level vocabulary in Western languages. Even for Chinese who speak very good English and spent some time in the West, it happens very often that relatively unusual words like say “onomatopeia” or “magnanimous” are unknown to them. The ones that like reading usually get over this thanks to #1, but the ones who don't are always stuck in very simple vocabulary.
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FOARP Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
You quite right to identify reading as the key to gaining vocabulary. A former collegue of mine, born in America to a Chinese American woman and a non-English speaking Hong-Kong man who could not speak English, and whose childhood was devided between Hong Kong and San Diego, has somehow managed to go all the way to graduating from university without being fully fluent as per you above definition in any language – neither Cantonese, nor English, nor Mandarin. I would regularly have to re-edit his work just to check for simple errors – and the reason why was simple: he just wasn`ta reader. He hadn`t read a book for pleasure in his whole life and therefore lacked the full-scale immersion which long-term reading gives. My experience is that thgis is not actually all that uncommon amongst first generation immigrants – friends of mine in other companies report meeting people with exactly the same problem, and always with the same kind of lack of curiosity that drives the truly voracious reader. Those who did have this thirst for knowledge, however, managed to become fluent in at least one language – usually, it must be said, English.
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I personally never found Chinese to be a difficult language to learn, but then again I never learned it in a formal setting until I reached university age here in China, until then I had basically been immersed in the culture and thus the language. I always felt as I was young when I came to China I was like a piece of putty that moulded to the culture rather than having the culture mould around me.
Idioms sometimes confuse me, but thinking about the entomology of each word for a second make it easy enough to figure it out within 30 seconds, where as English idioms that I have never formally learned or heard still confuse me.
In short, I found Chinese to be very easy, but I have given up on ever having to learn a second European language; verbs that change, male/female verbs etc etc now these are hard. Asian languages are easy in comparison.
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Well, growing up in China is a massive advantage, you know. I am going to give you an example of a word that I learned just today, to illustrate how mandarin can be incredibly difficult if you are not immersed in the culture for a long time.
This is embarrassing actually, but until today I didn't know the meaning of 猫王 … Literally it is the Cat King, for those who don't speak Chinese.
The shuffle was playing Heartbreak Hotel on my laptop, and Xiaoyi said: “hey, that is the Cat King!”
And I go: “no silly, that is Elvis!”
… and now I know the meaning of 猫王 – try learning that in your 8 to 9 evening classes twice a week
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I know I am a bit late but it is a fascinating discussion !
I read your examples of “hard words the same in most languages in the world” and I am not completely convinced. I am French, I understood them, and I could translate them in French, but it is not evident and I am not convinced an English-speaker learning French would know how to use them. For example, “calcium chloride” is “chlorure de calcium”. How do you guess that if you never studied chemistry in French ? How do you guess that “political correctness” is “politiquement correct” (literally “politically correct”, used as a both a noun and an adjective, however “correct” alone is never a noun). By the way, “distopya” does not exist, it is “dystopia” ;o) Ironic much ?
When you say “I can read and write as fast and complex as any of my French colleagues with similar backgrounds”, I am not quite sure I believe you. I'm sure that reading is OK, but when you write it is probably possible to guess it was written by a foreigner. No doubt you can write very well and make few mistakes, but still, these are not the mistakes a French would do. For example we don't say NU for UN, but always ONU.
I am not writing all this to bash your French, it is very good ;o) I just want to point out that every language is hard to speak and write perfectly (at least the ones I know : French, English and Mandarin, I have to venture a guess for the others …). In other words, I think your analysis concerning the difficulty of a language linked to common vocabulary is mostly relevant for passive knowledge. I never studied Italian and yes a read a technical text of Italian much more easily than the same text in Chinese. I could probably understand “calcium chloride” in Italian. However, I you ask me how to say “calcium chloride” in Italian, I don't know. And when I write English, there are often “frenchism”, words which are not exactly English, or words which evolved differently and are now pedantic in English while perfectly normal in French.
I am with you for the proper names however, not to put the real name is stupid (the opposite is true too, imagine I find a interesting article about a minor Chinese personality in a western newspaper, how am I supposed to find more information with only a pinyin without tones ?).
And of course, I also believe that Chinese is the hardest language in the world, if only to justify the hard work and years of fun I am having learning it …
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Uln Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Hi Pierre. Yeah pity you come a bit late in the conversation, but dont worry, the thread is still open.
Regarding my French, I think you would be surprised. In speaking I have an accent, but in writing I tend to do less mistakes than my French colleagues. The same happens to me in English and Spanish, it is just because my main hobby is reading, and the fact is most people out there just dont read so much, even in their native language. So the situation is that I have read more French books than most French people my age (who rarely read). This includes things as varied as Proust, the whole series of San Antonio and memorizing all the songs of Brassens (which I used to play on the guitar). Similar situation with my English.
Admittedly, from my writing people could tell I am not native, but not because my mistakes are too many, rather because they are different form mistakes natives do. Also because there is a phenomenon of hypercorrection, and a style that tends to be too grammatical, as opposed to the natural transcription of speech. But I don't mind too much these things, and I take heart in the knowledge that even the great Nabokov had this problem and some scholars have counted dozens of grammar faults in Lolita. There is still hope for me
Back to the main topic though: your calcium chloride/cloruro de calcio, etc is an example of what I call Code as opposed to Data. There a re simple rules to follow (ie in English it is -ide ending where in Spanish (Italian?) it is -uro ). But the words are the same. In Chinese you have to learn not only the Code rules, but also the whole set of roots for each element and most used combinations in organic chemistry PLUS you have to learn a character for each of them! So just to repeat again: I am not saying all the languages are THE SAME at a high level, I am just saying their Data element is the same. The Code element is much easier to master once you are already in the upper intermediate.
Re: ONU is the same in Spanish as in French, no NU. Regarding dystopia, it is just a writing typo, it reminds me of a common error called the Attila/Atilla conversion (search the language log if you are curious) where it is common for native writers to mistake the position of one double consonant where there are 2 possibilites. Anyway, things like ONU and dystopia dont give me away as foreign. What does give me away is using “safety” instead of “security”, for example, because both are the same in Spanish… etc.
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你有没有想过不仅仅是您的文章加入一点点? 我的意思是,你说什么是重要的和所有。 But think of if you added some great photos or videos to give your posts more, “pop”! Your content is excellent but with pics and videos, this site could definitely be one of the greatest in its niche. 真棒博客!
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Whether you get the job you want really depends on your answers during the interview, even so during this economic crisis!
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