中国是最困难的语言
2009年11月20日，书面Julen马达里亚加来自于生活的每一个学生的普通话点时，他觉得写的语言困难的呼叫。 时间终于来到了，我的 主人，我会按照路径 。 事实上，我打算走得更远。 我证明，中国是世界上最困难的语言。
我知道我危险的地面上行走，日语学习者节是一定要在我爱上所有其declensions的重量。 为了使这是一个公平的游戏，我会先定义我理解的困难：一个普通人需要的时间没有以前接触相关语言，实现一个功能的水平，其中功能理解为能够执行每一个正常的活动，在普通话没有明显的缺点，如：写论文，举办正式会议，以正常速度阅读，在嘈杂的酒吧聊天。 我以我的法语作为这个级别的标准衡量自己的水平。
当然，这个标准和“重大缺点”的整体概念是主观的和难以衡量，但对这个职位的目的，它应该是足够的。 请注意，这里的关键因素是实用工具 ：我特意关注较少，如口音方面只要在正常的沟通方式，因为它没有得到支付。 原因是，我考虑到语言作为沟通工具，而不是一个标志的状况，出身或其他可能的功能。 在中国，任何可能使用模仿口音失去了大多数外国人，因为五官立即给他们带走。
除了口音，像中国古典的重要领域给予我的“功能性”的定义，重量很少，原因很明显。 它是真实的，通过这个定义，我削弱我而言，最困难的语言，但我们可以负担得起的，因为我们最强大的武器仍然在储备。
还有一件事之前，我继续：这次演习已经试过很多次了，喜欢这里 ， 在 这里和这里 。 我忽略了以前的结果，因为他们这样作为老师的看法或某些常规参数没有任何在现实生活中的使用比较标准。 每名学生可以自由选择他自己定义的困难和功能水平，但在我看来，在这个岗位，总结，大多数人自然会是一个“ 的水平，需要在本地环境中使用的语言无缝”接受。
我的论点如下通过3个阶段的学习中文的过程：首先，我证明，中国是容易的，然后我证明，这是很难的。 最后，我会放弃的原因，中国是世界上最难的语言。 如果您已经熟悉学习普通话，你可能想直接跳到第三章。
中文是容易
简单的汉语语法和单词的第一个列表在一个基本水平，容易发音和记忆（音）在非常温和的学习曲线。 我已经多次在西班牙学习西班牙语的学生比较，几乎总是在中国普通话的学生更快地开始使用简单的句子。 除了语言本身，我怀疑，对中国的好奇和健谈的性质是它的一个重要组成部分。
如果你已经在中国已经足够长的时间，你可能已经看到一些学生，了解到中国在1年的奇迹。 我会见了一些他们自己，并在某些情况下，我对结果感到惊讶。 这些人基本上是自然的传播者，他们并不需要的色调或人物，因为他们使用普通话，这是上下文中非常强大的工具。 他们的语调和身体语言的信息渠道万吨，使他们能够受理带几个小时就结束中国的成人，而你坐在那里恨恨地想知道哪里放了。 这是一个真实的故事，顺便。
当然，不是每个人都可以成为这样一个伟大的传播者，但这里的要点是：一个人的某种和为某种目标，中国其实也可以在浸泡时了解到一个简单的语言。 这是一种肤浅的层面上被称为当你听到有人说：“他讲14种语言的流利”。 它只是最基本的字符，几乎没有语法和长期无音记忆的日常词汇列表。 这是行不通的，甚至靠近我的功能级别的定义，但它是有用的，有益的，对于大多数人来说，这是他们所需要的。
正是出于这个原因，每个外国人来中国，特别是好奇和交际的，我强烈建议学习中国的谈话没有字符。 在这第一个层次，它具有经济意义，他们认真研究。
由于长时间暴露在说普通话的环境，一个喇叭没有字符可以去很长的路要走。 然而，严重的学生普通话，非字符的路径是不可持续的。 除其他原因，因为它会使其无法读写，有效地离开了限制大面积的知识。
中文是难
步入下一阶段之前，潜在的学生应该三思。 因为它需要时间的投资比例几乎任何其他语言的研究，甚至等复杂的事业，例如，获得博士学位。 在绝大多数情况下，它没有经济意义，它根本就不是一个理性的选择。 所以，如果你决定去那里，只是确保你有不合理的动机。
在这个阶段中出现的困难，如字符和声调，已优秀的文章 上面 提到的 ，所以我不会赘述。 我只想强调的因素的背景和相互依存的，我觉得有时被低估。 的想法，总结，是这样的：这两个diabolically中国口头和书面的困难代码变得更加困难，因为他们往往是不能自我在学生的头脑，但依靠相互学习，然后他们都依赖于上下文的一个很好的协议。
这是该系统的最荒谬的部分，因为直觉人会想象，（半）表意文字的脚本是从语音独立。 事实是，他们不仅没有独立的，但整个系统的效率低下，中国人自己很大程度上依赖于他们的口语语言来解释字符。 这就解释了，例如，为什么它是那么容易提出与字符的平均中国不能读，或为什么他们可以读1报纸知道只有2000 *字符，但你不能，他们成功地使用他们的口语语言要记住/猜缺少的字符。
在其他方向，对书面材料的依赖，学会说话是很常见的任何第二语言，作为能够读取在发音显著的方式的话，使他们更容易记住。 在中国现有的材料，在适当的拼音（与tonemarks拉丁字母）几乎是零，和一些字母和声调的趋势，不同地区之间，使得它几乎不可能学习他们正确只是从听。 更糟的是，自己是中国人的扬声器上的字符来解决歧义，往往是与人民和地方，或当他们解释了一个新词的名称：“我的名字是江，”他们说，“美女子江“，指的字符姜2部分。 含糊不清往往发生在很多像普通话的语境语言，更当一个外国人参与。
这个讲话和写作之间的相互影响，有许多中国特有的其他后果：例如，它是不可能写下来，甚至读外来词，没有一个人物的先进知识，很难理解书面形式，并在谈话中都熟悉的名字。
所有这些因素（以及其他许多我没有提到）为外国人提供的极其困难的学习环境。 这是最主要的原因是不可能达到功能级别后，口头和书面语言上的一种平衡的方法，加上沉浸在中国文化。 它解释了为什么一个字符的渊博知识的汉学家永远不会说话的语言功能 ，也不旧中国双手语文沉浸在几十年的生活。 他们都站在同一条腿比别人短的摇晃平台。
总之，学习中国的努力是类似2，需要并行**追求不同的语言学习。 与这两种语言是一个很大的困难比法国（英语为母语）。
然而，这仍未能打动日本，已经磨他们的武士刀来后，我的头的学生。 我会承认，到了这里，日语仍然有一个很好的机会击败普通话。 移动到下一节看到我的将军。
中国是世界上最困难的语言
现在是，当我们进入第三阶段，在功能级别的学生，没有任何“重大缺点”与母语相比。 至于我担心的是，这个阶段只是假设：我从来没有见过一个外国人到了那里。 我不是说这个人不存在，我只是说，在中国3年后，我还没有遇到任何，就是它是多么难得。
在既定标准的措施方面，我可以词组，它想：我仍然不能满足水平的一个单一的外国人，能说流利的中国竞争，与我在法国自己的水平，这是我的第四语言，作为一个成年人学习在3年内在法国度过的。 我有一个口音和一些人造阿美族 ，但我可以读取和写入，快速和复杂的，任何类似的背景，我的法国同事，我不记得我最后一次在电视上的东西没有得到。 我挑战任何人给我弄一个非中国本土的扬声器，可以说或写，就像我在法国做，甚至在水平相当。 对不起，如果我听起来自大，我只是写，因为它是基础的论点如下。
但是，让我们到这个职位的实际点：为什么中国在世界上最困难的语言？
这种说法的主要依据，做词汇。 我认为，在大多数学习汉语的研究，这个因素已经大大低估。 在我看来，它是唯一最重要的一个学生去功能级别的障碍。 之前，我解释为什么，让我给一些背景：
在原产地，有深厚的文化原因，从事实上，中国作为一个文明的摇篮，其扬声器。 实际上，它可以精确地说，中国是人类文明的摇篮之一，并一直保持一种活的语言，这一天只有一个。 语言学家会说，语言已经改变，因为商代时代完全，但是这是一个纯技术性的反对。 文化上，它仍然是相同的人相同的语言，它是这种感觉的扬声器，这带来了一系列的态度，是中国特有的。
这些“态度”，包括不承认拉丁或希腊文化参考，并推而广之，不接受在英语或其他外国基层创造的新词。 这是问题的核心。 这使得事情，学习汉语的外国人，也为中国人学习外国语言极其困难。 和它的影响超越了语言学习的范围。
关于普通话的学生的实际后果，考虑这个问题：需要获得一个标准的语言水平的积极词汇，例如，最高水平的汉语水平考试，通常需要的词汇，包含不超过几千字，这是更足够日常一般的谈话。 然而，我曾见过的HSK11人甚至没有接近我的法国竞争。
原因是受过高等教育的人，被动词汇真正需要达到的功能水平是比任何能力的标准测试中所需的词汇。 载体 ， 离子或形而上学的思考。 这些话都没有进入，因为在理论上，他们是技术术语，但他们出现在正常的谈话，你承认他们预计，即使你不知道， 真的是什么离子词汇的标准列表。 你一生内的文化生活，通过收购这些话。
那么，发生了什么事，我的法语吗？ 很显然，我刚刚学会相处的几千字，从此它是非常容易，因为已经知道我的大部分专业词汇广大口袋。 ，这是因为，一旦你已经学会了解码语音和语法，并一定程度以上的词汇，所有的语言在世界上成为几乎相同，除了中国，这是。
和作为一个中国这个分化的结果，对于大多数人来说，要实现功能级别的唯一可行的方法是花了一辈子浸泡，以获取那些没有在语言学校学习的所有领域的词汇，只能学到通过经验。 总之，为学生成为功能将采取以下三个阶段以上：
- 出色的沟通能力，人才和动机。
- 多年的全日制学习，学习阅读和写作。
- 10年左右甚至更长的时间 - 分钟吗？ - 100％沉浸在中国。
从本质上讲，我们说的是一名专门向中国人作为一个职业生涯中，谁拥有人才的语言和谁住总多年的中国环境。 这不是不可能的，这个人的存在，我们甚至可能有人在下面描述的意见。 但结合在一个人的3个条件是极为罕见的，为广大学生，在中国的功能水平将永远是遥不可及。
对不起长后，我写了挫折的一天，当我卡在中间含有离子治疗的句子，部分原因是因为离子，离子（li2zi3）字像许多其他的技术的话，不给你任何线索时，它是物理学方面。 我希望看到日本（谁是相当不错说：“离子”的发音）要回答这个。 将军。
和中国是世界上最困难的语言赢得了可疑的荣誉。
注意事项：
*已经很多讨论关于这一点，数量可能是错误的。 点是，即使当你知道更多的字符比是土生土长的中国人，他 将仍然是能读得更好，比你快。 这是令人沮丧的。
**我使用的术语在这里非常松散，写中国本身并不是一种语言，而是代表了中国。 这是不是真的学习2种语言，但我觉得这比较有用的，需要将你的头存储的原始数据量的感觉。
聚苯乙烯。 如果你感兴趣，在这次辩论中，看到的总结，并希望更明确的岗位在这里 。
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我说两种语言（日语及中文），我不会说中国人要困难得多。 它肯定更容易发言中间水平。 但是，正式的书面语言是很难的。
不过日本使用混合技术的中文和英文，并书面系统是纯粹的疯狂。 然而又一个非常统一的语言，而中国不是。 添加到困难，我相信，中国的区域差异。
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ULN回复：
2009年11月20日下午07:12
我这里的要点是，中国是非常高的水平，以达到与复杂的词汇流畅，即使在最专业的领域的国际世界的障碍是比大多数人认为的要大得多。
在这个意义上说，中国是比日本更加困难，并按照我的逻辑，这是最困难的语言。 在年底，中国与日本的竞争取决于真的对你有什么目标时，学习语言，你想你的词汇量是多么复杂。
该职位的真实信息是：中国是比大多数人的想象，如果你想获得一个高层次的困难。
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“一旦你学会了解码语音和语法，并一定程度以上的词汇，所有的语言在世界上成为几乎相同，除了中国”
- 你的意思是“世界中的所有语言”？ 斯瓦希里？ 马来人呢？ 韩国人？ 日本？ 泰国？ 越南？ ......这是毫不奇怪，印欧语和浪漫的语言有着大量的词汇（我听说，西班牙和法国的份额80％的话，类似语法男女！）由于历史的原因。 但他们是“世界语言”吗？
“因为离子，离子（li2zi3）字像许多其他的技术的话，不给你任何有关技术性的线索。”
- 其实是一个线索：在字符子：分子（分子），原子（原子）。 我觉得子一般都可以用来表示粒子组成单词。
“在不同文化之间的沟通的后果不能被忽略，最终的语言有很多，我们看到中国和西方之间的冲突和误解的重要作用。”
- 有效的语句。 然而，它不会有很多工作要做，与中国的技术术语（知觉）混浊。 误传在这种情况下，我认为主要来自扬声器构造他们的论据说服他们的观众的目的 - 作为一个概括，中国往往诉诸情感和权力，而印欧/浪漫扬声器倾向于呼吁理性和逻辑。
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迎宾：我承认，我不知道所有的语言在世界，我对这个职位的所有信息的问题，我问人学习日语，俄语的朋友，也是我自己knowledg巴斯克语，西班牙语，德语，普通话和法语。
我还没有发现任何一种语言，有国外这么几个方面，作为中国人，但我承认有可能在那里，这就是为什么我希望有人看到这篇文章将帮助。
你应该牢记一件事，然而，这是只有在世界上最发达的汉语语言真的有所有的技术词汇的范围，因为他们有足够多的扬声器和发展他们的读者。 100S在世界上的语言，很少有机会到有意义的离子有一个字。 给你一个例子，巴斯克人，即使它是一个非常不同的语言，也表示离子，metafisika和bektor。 这是不可能的，任何其他语言将是足够强大（或疯狂）去中国的方式，也许除了阿拉伯语......想到这，多少种语言，大部分的研究论文被翻译？ 大多数情况下只有一个：英语，如果他们不已经在该语言威滕。
尽管这一切，我承认的说法是有弱点，我会尽量看。
Re: French and Spanish are very similar: this is true, but it does not affect the main argument. I only needed 3 months of study and perhaps 10 months in full immersion to get ALMOST to my actual level. (roughly, I cant really remember) In the case of Japanese this would be increased perhaps to 4 years of study and 4 of immersion, or perhaps even more, I don't know. But the point is that you would reach a level where the whole thing would be self-supporting, because you would not need to re-learn all the language of science, technology and higher knowledge in general.
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Ray Reply:
August 29th, 2011 at 7:57 am
@Uln, As a matter of fact not only Chinese does that. German is another language that tend to translate foreign terms using native roots. In fact, if you think about it, relying on a foreign language for technical terms isn't really a logical thing to do to begin with. English almost relies completely on Greek and Latin for its technical terms. For a native English speaker, these are essentially foreign non-sense (eg otolith = ear stone. so why not just say ear stone???). As an instructor for introductory biology, I feel that it is such practice of importing/constructing technical terms from foreign roots that prevent knowledge from spreading in the English-speaking world, at least for teenagers.
In asia, middle Chinese played the role of Latin/Greek as the lingua franca in the past millenium (I guess this is the “attitude” you observe). That's why Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese etc contain a vast amount of words constructed from Chinese roots. Therefore, what you described to be easy as an English speaker trying to study French, would be more comparable to a Japanese speaker trying to learn Mandarin/Cantonese, where many roots have closely related meanings. In fact, because the characters faithfully record the root of a word so regardless of sound change, the root can be even more easily identified than the cognates in the English and French vocabularies.
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Regarding 离子: OK, the clue of 子 is very difficult to catch because there are HUNDREDS of words finished in 子 that are not in the field of particles. It is actually an extremely common ending, even the name of a philosopher is 老子. Believe me I know perfectly the meaning of 原子 or 分子, but the problem is I also know 胖子， 日子， 孔子 …
That is why I say Chinese is very contextual, the main problem I had is that I read this in a stupid prospect of my gym there would be an expression such as ionic treatment. I woudl have guessed it is a particle if it ws in a text of physics, but really, in a gym leaflet it is impossible!
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Regarding your last point: “Valid statement. However, it does not have much to do with the (perceived) opacity of technical terms in Chinese. Miscommunication in this instance I think largely arises from the way speakers construct their arguments for the purpose of convincing their audience – as a generalization, Chinese tend to appeal to emotion and authority whereas Indo-European/ Romance speakers tend to appeal to reason and logic.”
yinbin, I am not saying that language is the ONLY reason for miscommunication, not even the biggest reason. I am only saying that it is one factor, and it is probably the one which is easiest to change by politicians.
My point with technical terms is that they are more and more often used in normal conversation, even among non specialists, somtimes as metaphors to refer to some similar concept. It is the same as with cultural references, except that technological references will increase as technology becomes more part of our life, whereas traditional references are moe likely to decrease or stay stable.
This is why, even if I admit that not understanding high level terms is not a MAJOR reason of communication, it is actually a GROWING reason, and one that separates China from all the rest of the World.
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Well, I would say the word “等离子体” conveys more meaningful information to me than “plasma”, a body with equal number of different kinds of ions…….Hmmm, and Taiwanese translate “plasma” as “电浆”.
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I think Korean is tougher. Korean is borderline impossible to pronounce and if you say a word even slightly wrong, nobody will understand you, because Koreans are not used to accents. Oh, and then there are something like ten levels of speaking, depending on the relationship between the person talking and the person listening.
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Korean is not as hard to pronounce as Chinese, not by far.
The levels of speaking are a hurdle but then again Japanese has it too, if not as complex. Anyway being a foreigner exempts one from part of it.
The problem with Korean is you've got no Chinese characters to guide you, so you have to remember everything by sound.
Uln, I understand your point, but Japanese in that level (specialized fields) is probably 70% Chinese origin vocabulary vs 30% English, and I believe Korean is similar.
I've heard that Tamil also uses only native words for modern concepts, though I can't confirm it myself.
I found Japanese easier to learn because its fun to learn, ie there's plenty of fun and interesting material to hook oneself until you kinda get fluent. Chinese pop culture is not as attractive, but its culture as a whole is engaging enough. I guess learning Hindi or Javanese (to an educated level) would be much harder, ie much more boring.
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Kevin Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
“I found Japanese easier to learn because its fun to learn, ie there's plenty of fun and interesting material to hook oneself until you kinda get fluent” <– this. One of the biggest difficulties with Chinese (or at least Mandarin) is that there's very little interesting content that you would want to watch even if you weren't deliberately trying to improve your Chinese. A handful of Zhang Yimou movies and that's about it – most of what I watch/read in Chinese is translations. Compared with something like French or Japanese, it's a real struggle.
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At my level, I'm constantly tormented by chengyu. It's especially frustrating when someone tosses in a few obscure chengyu when I'm on a roll reading an interview or something and I've got to reach for my “Chengyu without tears” book.
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ULN回复：
November 21st, 2009 at 2:55 am
At your level?? yeah, chengyus are a nightmare at every level! Even Chinese don't understand all of them.
这是唯一的因素很多，我没有提后，以避免使10000字！
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21
上午
丹 - 我，一个上午Spandrell。 韩国在世界上，确保最困难的语言之一，但它有两个巨大的优势，相对于中国：1 - 语音脚本2 - 国外贷款。 你必须得到进入中国的研究远远不够，要实现这个意义。
spandrell - “，但日本在这一水平（专业领域）可能是70％和30％的原产于中国的词汇” -
这是一个点，我需要更好地验证了一下，我的朋友学习日语不够先进，知道这个。 我猜测，这取决于你指望什么样的词汇水平，可能更现代化/科学词汇英语的贷款。 我chos的3个例子，形而上学，离子载体的记录是在日本的所有贷款，我没有选择他们的目的（我检查后aftr书面）
在任何情况下，比赛中国/日本后仅仅是一个噱头，使更多的乐趣。 To be honest I don't think it makes sense to discuss too much this question because in the end it depends on many personal factors such as the set of abilites of each student, his particular objective when studying the language, etc.
The real point I wanted to make in the post is the often understated difficulty of Chinese. And that a part of this difficulty is caused deliberately by the Chinese themselves, by refusing to use loans, isolating them from the rest of the World. In case we confirm your statement about Japanese, then that would make 2 languages that isolate themselves from the World. This doesn't solve the problems that the non-loan approach cause to China.
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21
上午
thank you for this post and the links linking how hard chinese is. i read for 2 hours only the first link laughing. finally i see:
“Shh — not so loud!” says the director, “If you don't tell them it's difficult, they never know.”
so now i know, i'll read on if i have time tomorrow.
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上午
For a Westerner learning another Western language will definitely be much easier. It's like comparing a Japanese learning Chinese and vice versa. The European languages had a lot in common. It's almost like comparing the different region of China learning another regional language. In fact, these regional dialects will be a national language if it is a country, just like Europe. Furthermore, it would probably be easier for an Asian learning another Asian language than to learn a Western language. I am not saying Chinese is not difficult to learn, but your argument is purely based on a Westerner point of view.
I hope when you said “all the languages in the World”, you don't mean languages of Europe.
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ULN回复：
November 21st, 2009 at 11:21 am
No, I really mean it “all the languages in the World”. This is NOT based on a Westerners point of view.
The only exceptions you might argue are Japanese and Korean, but even those languages for the most modern vocabulary usually comes from the West rather than from China.
Please bear in mind that when I said “all the languages in the World” I added “above a certain level of vocavulary”. This “certain level” is NOT THE SAME in all languages. For example, lower between French/Spanish (where similarities start very early) than between Spanish/English (where phrasal verbs and germanic roots go up a long way until they give way to latin).
The “certain level” would be even higher between English/Thai, for example, would include only words that are very modern or sophisticated, and so on the more different the languages the higher the “certain level”.
Still, my point is that there is always a lot of common vocabulary above that level, and that most languages in the World are very easy to master past one certain tipping point, whereas Chinee is not because you have to relearn EVERYTHING again. We are speaking of course of high level learners, not of your average student of Chinese.
Hope this clarifies.
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I'm just about at the functional level you described in Chinese. While I agree that Chinese is very difficult, I don't agree that this is understated. In fact, it is overstated. The state department officially lists it as the most difficult language for English speakers to learn, and the voices supporting that view are much more numerous than the ones opposing it.
Anyway, on the point of loan words, the Chinese language, being morpheme and character based, is structured in a way to make loan words difficult. But when it comes to technology, many loan words have seeped into the spoken language, while original Chinese words are used in writing. People say “email”, but they write “dianzi youjian”. Interestingly, the etymology of new technological terms often follows the etymology of the terms in English. They don't use the Greek and Latin roots, they use the MEANING of the Greek and Latin roots.
下面是一些例子：
download – xia zai “down” and “load”
SMS – duan xin – short message
processor – chuli qi -processing device
The list goes on and on, and while the language isn't sounding any more like other languages, the logic of the language is converging with that of others.
Note also that the spoken and written versions of the language have never been closer together than they are now, closing yet another gap with the western languages.
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@xiefeilaga – Good comment, thanks for that. 答案：
Understatement: OK, I was not thinking of the State Department or professional linguists, obviously they know what they are talking about. I was thinking of the thousands of people that come to China and imagine they are going to learn the language in a couple of years. I was also thinking of the official language school in Barcelona where there were 5 full classes of optimistic students in the first year, and by the time it got to the 6th year there was only like 5 guys, and even those 5 guys weren't close to functional.
Re Loans: yes, good point. But there are also LOTS of examples where the logic doesn't follow. I don't know where you are based but in Shanghai I hear “youjian” much more than “email”.
The most important objection however is this: your example is similar to the guy that objected 离子 above， in that you find it obvious BECAUSE you already know it. By this I mean: if you hear “chuliqi” in a conversation that is not specifically about computers, and you never heard the word before, then it is not obvious at all: Is it a processor? Is it some other kind of industrial part like a “handling fork” or some kind of vending machine like the automatic paying machine in a car “Parking”? In most cases it is not obvious (although admittedly “chuliqi” IS relatively easy to figure out).
Anyway, you have a good point with the converging logic of the language, supposing it is really happening. This does mitigate the problems that I sugest, and it is worth mentioning. The last part of the post is still in draft so I will add this when I finish it tomorrow.
Re: last paragraph. I don't get what you mean by spoken and written versions being closer now.
PS> Out of curiosity, since you claim just about functional level: how many years have you dedicated to studying Chinese, and how many living in China to achieve that level? Did you had any contact with mandarin during childhood/school period?
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I go with Xiefeilaga on the logic of word composition. I've just recently done a lab internship in China and one in France and I found it similarily difficult/easy to get the technical terms in both languages. After all, the French are shooing Anglicism and saying ADN instead of DNA requires just as much learning as saying 核酸。 What's more, the French use all kinds of rather complex verbs in science, while the Chinese stay with standard verbs like 来 and 去 for nearly everything. And just as Xiefeilaga said, the logic in word composition really helps you to understand what you're reading about – instead of just seeing the term and having a “general concept” of it.
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DNA = ADN, it is the same word, the difference is just grammar, not vocabulary, because in French the noun (Acid) comes before its modifier (Deoxyribonucleic). It is the same as with most abbreviations, like the UN, which is NU in French. Francky speaking Mei-Mei, I cannot believe that someone seeing “Nations Unies” could not understand “United Nations”. I know that it can be confusing the first time you see this inversion, but when you have seen it once then you know the trick and that it is not a difficulty anymore, it is MUCH EASIER than learning 核酸 which looks very simple to you because you already know that word. But now tell me, how do you say RNA in Chinese?
The verbs that French use in science are almost always exactly the same as English or most other Western languages. Such as magnetiser, precipiter, solidifier, saturer, synthetiser… can you give some examples of what you mean?
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If you want to know the reason you and the others posting here find their chosen languages of study difficult, you're looking right at it. You're spending all your time analyzing and complaining about it. Chinese is the most spoken human language on earth. That right there should disprove your argument that it is the most difficult language in the world. In those billions of people there are sure to be millions upon millions of snotty 5 year olds who can speak circles around you because instead of going online to whine they immersed themselves, listened intently to their parents, watched Chinese TV, found other Chinese playmates, etc., etc.. There are almost certainly millions upon millions of 10 year olds who can write circles around you for similar reasons.
No language is inherently harder than another. It's simply a matter of shutting up and letting yourself get lost in the language. I know from personal experience, I've been immersing myself in Japanese ever since I finished up a year abroad there last year. In a grand total of a year and a half of learning the language, I can read a newspaper and converse with all the Japanese students on campus about almost anything. If you have time to complain about a language then you have time to get good at a language.
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@Uln:
I'll start with my language background, which actually kind of strengthens your point. I've been living in China for nine years now, and I started out with some pretty intense and well thought-out training. Over the years I have held several positions in Chinese companies, using the language every day in a business setting, and I've been translating for artists, writers and filmmakers for a long time as well. I believe that if the language is taught in the right way, one can gain basic proficiency in the classroom, but fluency can only be gained through real immersion.
And on to the question about spoken and written languages. For centuries, there was little resemblance between spoken and written Chinese. Written Chinese, beyond simple things like shop signs and menus, was extremely difficult and abstract, a pursuit for only the highly educated. While the spoken language of the Zhou dynasty was probably quite different from modern putonghua, it is impossible to imagine people actually speaking like the language written in the Dao De Jing.
The baihua movement, which began in the early twentieth century, encouraged people to write in vernacular Chinese for the first time in history. A similar thing happened to the European languages hundreds of years ago with books like the Gutenberg Bible and Canterbury Tales. While there are still quite a few differences between written and spoken Chinese, most written Chinese is now based on spoken constructs, though it is often a little more formal and writers can abbreviate a bit thanks to the added visual context of the characters. This helped spread literacy, as Chinese speakers now only have to learn the characters to be able to read (a daunting task in itself), rather than learning an entirely different grammatical system.
On technical terms, I don't think any languages have built-in clues that the word you're looking at is a technical term. That all comes from the speaker's “sense of language” (语感), the ability to make inferences from context, intuition and the like. That is why you can pick up the technical terms in French and English. Your intuitive knowledge of Greek and Latin roots applied to your language experience fills in the rest.
I didn't learn terms like “processor” from some Chinese lesson book, I learned it at the computer market, trying to buy a computer. He would say things like “what kind of chuli qi do you want”, and because we were in that context, I was able to figure out that he meant processor.
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Hi Joe, you are right: You learn a language faster if you spend 100% of your time learning or speaking it. And to the extent that this is true, you might also say that if I stop blogging, leave my job and completely lose all links with my Western life, then I would learn faster. Well, congratulations Einstein, but that is not the point of this post at all.
这是不是抱怨后，相反，我真的很喜欢研究中国。 我写这篇文章，因为我想使低估的重要性专门的被动词汇学习一门语言时，一个有趣的问题（至少对我来说）。
“没有语言是天生就比其他更难”：没有一个拼音脚本是客观，本质上多有它的困难。 中国是世界上唯一不使用语音脚本语言。 人们请你说话之前，明白这一点。 即使在中国，他们的书面语言的学习是非常困难的。
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@ Xiefeilaga -
感谢分享您的经验。 这基本上是完全沉浸9年，包括认真研究，我是否要在开始全职。 诚然比我说“生活一辈子”的少。 但它仍然是一个一辈子在这个意义上说，中国是你的升学及就业的中央重点。 无论如何，将编辑后。
回复：百花，OK，感谢澄清。 我只是想你指的是别的东西。
重新技术方面：有趣的观点。 我或多或少同意对内置的线索和语感。 诚然，像乔上面说的，有什么处理器比在chuliqi *本质*更难。
中心点，但在我的岗位是不是*固有的困难，它是*相对困难的扬声器，从西方的基础词汇来。 问题是从那里来的，除中国外，世界上所有的发言者。 例如，在日本，处理器是“porocesar”......有没有办法，chuliqi可以与之竞争简朴，chuliqi即使是最晦涩的技术术语之一。
RE：“我没有学过同类项”处理器“从中国的一些教训书，我学会了在电脑市场，试图购买一台电脑。”
没错。 这就是我的意思是，你只能学习这些东西，因为你通过体验生活，你不能期望到学习类becasue的词汇，它是太广大。 这就是我“你需要住一辈子”的意思。
这“终身”在你的情况是很短的部分，我猜因为你是非常有才华的语言。 但也是因为你低估我的法语水平。 想到这，我的法语水平的专业词汇是100％，达到母语水平。 超过一定水平的话，因为所有的英语或作为我的母语是相同的。
换句话说，我仍然相信我可以很容易地得到你，你需要的专业词汇在字典中查找，尤其是如果我找到一个领域，在那里你没有翻译工作作为。 在所有诚实，关闭头顶，你能翻译这些条款下面给中国吗？
聚氨酯，氯化钙，亚瑟Rimbaud，乔叟，铬，钒，氯丁橡胶西装，辩证唯物主义，distopya，矩阵，政治上的正确性，心灵感应，柏拉图。
所有这些都是为在世界上大多数语言没有道理的。 我想不出这么多的好例子，在不同的领域，但你的精神。 你在这个水平真的吗？
如果是，恭喜你，你是我曾经讲过的，中国最好的外国议长
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有趣的是，中国法律对韩国。
最近韩国有重铺一节的高速铁路，因为承包商的错误“水防”为他们的工作说明书中的“水浸泡” - 由于某种原因，这两个是在韩国的拼写相同。
猜猜韩国真的搞砸了他们的语言后，他们决定把一个拼音系统。 另一方面，中国和日本（日本街道，但智力日本）保留的准确程度，只能拉丁美洲匹配。
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上午
@ ULN
在这样的条款，你的权利。 关闭我的头顶，我不知道所有的人，虽然我以前用过，只是所有，并深信，如果你发现在中国给我，我会承认每一个。
我敢说，大多数以英语为母语不知道什么铬钒要么是，或该问题的任何中国的扬声器。 但就像面对这个陌生的词讲英语，汉语的人都知道从字符一眼（铬钒刚），这是一个类型的钢材。
你公平点，虽然。 它是一个讲英语，法语水平达到功能，但不是中国人。 事实上，中国本土的人不真正达到这个水平，因为语言的本质。
你的论点成立，但它是一个高度条件。 虽然它可能是不可能有人达到的水平，在那里他们可以了解每一个专门字，它是不可能到达本机的扬声器，这是对我们的一些摆在首位的目标相同的流畅。 如果我想要写一个关于金属合金的论文，我能找到心跳的条款清单。 在这个过程中它只是一个额外的步骤。
如果我们提取“必须能写有关金属合金的论文”从你的理论部分没有字典，你会发现，也有很多非母语的人能够履行在中国流利的所有其他要求。 当然，你将不能满足他们在上海，在那里浸泡是来之不易的。
很快，所以，没有咨询字典，什么是“休止角”？ （英文）
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重新休止角：不一样的。 氯丁橡胶西装或的扩大poliurethane隔离材料出现在普通的谈话。 铬钒少一点，但还是每个人都承认作为一种合金，即使没有看到它写它。 “安息角：”我从来没有什至听说，尽管工程师！
你是正确的：有一个technicity级以上的词汇是与非专家无关。 但我觉得有一个非常大的面积低于这一水平，这是技术词汇，但属于正常的谈话，至少受过高等教育的人，。
回复：上海：非常真实的，这就是为什么我感到沮丧！
回复：我对存在功能的扬声器参数。 是的，我同意你的看法，“不可能是什么”，必须有像你的生活完全沉浸在了几个人，谁是非常接近（或）功能级别。 我的标准不会是翻译的金属合金的书，而是因为这简单：使用字典翻译没有任何一般的高层次的文本。
在任何情况下，这不可能或不学习中国功能不是主要的一点，我想提出，我愿意承认，我exagerated后，离开这里的讨论。 我也编辑后的结论，我写一个新的集中，让我感兴趣的方面。
作为我们讨论的结论，我会说：对于大多数语言，但尤其是中国，充分浸泡是唯一的方式来实现（或方法）的功能级别。
谢谢！
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@ ULN：完全同意，有最后陈述。 我曾经与我所说的在中国的流畅性满足的唯一外国人是那些已经沉浸自己。
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刚刚看了你的第二个职位，这使得事情更加清晰。 不意味着这是不是你写的一切！
但我仍然坚持：在德国，我们不使用（除了为synthetiser）表达你上面提到的在日常生活中的实验室生活。 经学会拉丁语和英语，我肯定会理解他们，但我理解你实际使用的时候说。 为此，我将肯定有至少一次听到法语的表达 - 就在中国。
另注：阿拉伯语？
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我知道，德国是一个有点具体，特别是在一些领域，如化工，哲学和科学的一些分支机构。 我认为这可能是由于德国的主导作用，当这些领域发展：德国语言创建之前不存在的话。 我猜想，这些条款中的许多人特意从日耳曼根源，而不是拉丁，在德国浪漫主义/民族主义是强大的时候，在20世纪19和上半年。 这虽然只是一种猜测。
因此，德国的语言，拥有国内最大的独立的词汇之一，从我已经能够判断。 然而，它甚至没有接近中国在这方面。
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我从来没有真正喜欢的“最困难的语言在世界上的想法”，但您的文章是我看到的第一个使量化的尝试。 这真的很有趣。 我想说的 - 如果它是没有的字符 - 许多冰岛股份，贵点。 它确有困难的语法（比德国，或许比俄罗斯少），而且几乎没有外来词。 处理器是gjörvi这意味着像“实干家”的东西。 不是很明显要么。
我认为，你必须考虑到在学习语言的人的数量。 试想，在20年的时间，如果中国崛起的成功，中国成为世界通用的语言（不作为同等程度英语，但仍）。 它仍然会是难学，如果让很多人讲它呢？
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这从一个链接的报价只是热闹（千真万确）：
“（...）中国古典真的几百年深奥的轶事和笑话写在一种简洁，代码之间的小，智力，一切了然于心的精英群体，他们已经知道了整个文学的向前和向后传播吝啬，反正“。
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WKL，是的，我喜欢的那款，以及。
重新的标题是“最困难的”世界语言“，我同意你的看法，我不喜欢它。
我这样做标题的唯一原因是，最近我有一些意见，我想捕捉用户的眼睛，大声笑......这是PUE营销
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我一直在研究中国多年，我不知道我永远不会得到我想成为:::你BI-linguals是幸运的！
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看完所有Ulns后，我已决定同意。
我，也花费了3年在中国，从来没有见过任何人都可以说流利的一个高层次的，（不包括大山）。
chengyus，书面方式的能力，了解繁体字是必要的，充分掌握语言。
最后，我会发表评论，本条应名为不同。
其主要目的是捍卫中国是最困难的语言学习，在最高级别的，我会同意。
不过，我仍然坚持我的观点，即任何一点点的个性和Witt将有小问题，在经过一些练习语言沟通。 中国是实践的地方！
有更难的语言学习初学者泰国或老挝pronoucing试过水平的人吗？ 波斯语JIST如何？ 作为一个讲英语的，我吃了不少苦头，努力学习基本西班牙语的自反动词。
因此，中国是最困难的语言，在更高层次上学习
同意
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26
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戴夫：嘿！ 我不是双语！ 嗯，至少不是在中国，大声笑
@凯尔：谢谢你的支持。 我认为，大多数学生在这个线程普通话很高兴看到中国作为地球上最困难的语言加冕。 也有一些是在那安心，像它始终是一个方便的借口，懒惰的学生......
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我发现执业字符当地每天的最佳来源，因为大部分中国电视上的东西被称为超过韩国/日本的东西。 。 。
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我还提醒英国专利律师必须通过欧洲资格考试在欧洲专利律师执业的问题。 不像他们的欧洲同行还没有真正学会法语或德语（随着英语的三个欧洲专利实践中使用的语言），所以有蒙混过关书面考试期间在德国和法国的专利。 尽管许多英国申请人传递德语/法语，因为英国只是看看图，看看在测试文件中的技术术语，受过教育的猜测，它的一切手段。 他们可以相处，不知道因为大多是近乎相同的条款一定程度以上的法语或德语。
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是。 Now try a similar text in Chinese, and good luck. I am in the chemical industry and by now I know how to call the 50 most common chemcial products, but let me tell you there are hundreds of them, and not a single one is of Western origin.
One example: yixi is ethylene. How bout that?? LOL
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FOARP回复：
December 3rd, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Just like you said, it can't be done. Working in patenting I had to stop and ask with pretty much every one of the technical terms, a simple thing like 光板 (a light diffuser board for a display) are guessable in context, but words like 碳纳米管 ('carbon nano-tube') and 梯形 ('T shaped' – ridiculous!) were both unguessable and uncheckable as they cannot be found in the dictionary.
However, I guess Joe above has found a magic secret that allows him to get around all this, or at least the entirely human urge to vent about it!
My one question, therefore, is how about Chinese immigrants to the west? There are an awful lot of Chinese people working in technical fields which require specialist vocabulary, many of them seem to be able to master English/French/German/etc. technical language, and whilst having a phonetic script with clearly separated words may make this easier, it can't be that hard – or can it?
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That's a good question: how about the Chinese who go to the the West. In my opinion this has a double answer:
1- Their problem is mitigated because Western languages use latin alphabet not characters, this makes things easier.
2- In spite of #1, they do have a lot of trouble with high level vocabulary in Western languages. Even for Chinese who speak very good English and spent some time in the West, it happens very often that relatively unusual words like say “onomatopeia” or “magnanimous” are unknown to them. The ones that like reading usually get over this thanks to #1, but the ones who don't are always stuck in very simple vocabulary.
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FOARP回复：
December 4th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
You quite right to identify reading as the key to gaining vocabulary. A former collegue of mine, born in America to a Chinese American woman and a non-English speaking Hong-Kong man who could not speak English, and whose childhood was devided between Hong Kong and San Diego, has somehow managed to go all the way to graduating from university without being fully fluent as per you above definition in any language – neither Cantonese, nor English, nor Mandarin. I would regularly have to re-edit his work just to check for simple errors – and the reason why was simple: he just wasn`ta reader. He hadn`t read a book for pleasure in his whole life and therefore lacked the full-scale immersion which long-term reading gives. My experience is that thgis is not actually all that uncommon amongst first generation immigrants – friends of mine in other companies report meeting people with exactly the same problem, and always with the same kind of lack of curiosity that drives the truly voracious reader. Those who did have this thirst for knowledge, however, managed to become fluent in at least one language – usually, it must be said, English.
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I personally never found Chinese to be a difficult language to learn, but then again I never learned it in a formal setting until I reached university age here in China, until then I had basically been immersed in the culture and thus the language. I always felt as I was young when I came to China I was like a piece of putty that moulded to the culture rather than having the culture mould around me.
Idioms sometimes confuse me, but thinking about the entomology of each word for a second make it easy enough to figure it out within 30 seconds, where as English idioms that I have never formally learned or heard still confuse me.
In short, I found Chinese to be very easy, but I have given up on ever having to learn a second European language; verbs that change, male/female verbs etc etc now these are hard. Asian languages are easy in comparison.
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Well, growing up in China is a massive advantage, you know. I am going to give you an example of a word that I learned just today, to illustrate how mandarin can be incredibly difficult if you are not immersed in the culture for a long time.
This is embarrassing actually, but until today I didn't know the meaning of 猫王 … Literally it is the Cat King, for those who don't speak Chinese.
The shuffle was playing Heartbreak Hotel on my laptop, and Xiaoyi said: “hey, that is the Cat King!”
And I go: “no silly, that is Elvis!”
… and now I know the meaning of 猫王 – try learning that in your 8 to 9 evening classes twice a week
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I know I am a bit late but it is a fascinating discussion !
I read your examples of “hard words the same in most languages in the world” and I am not completely convinced. I am French, I understood them, and I could translate them in French, but it is not evident and I am not convinced an English-speaker learning French would know how to use them. For example, “calcium chloride” is “chlorure de calcium”. How do you guess that if you never studied chemistry in French ? How do you guess that “political correctness” is “politiquement correct” (literally “politically correct”, used as a both a noun and an adjective, however “correct” alone is never a noun). By the way, “distopya” does not exist, it is “dystopia” ;o) Ironic much ?
When you say “I can read and write as fast and complex as any of my French colleagues with similar backgrounds”, I am not quite sure I believe you. I'm sure that reading is OK, but when you write it is probably possible to guess it was written by a foreigner. No doubt you can write very well and make few mistakes, but still, these are not the mistakes a French would do. For example we don't say NU for UN, but always ONU.
I am not writing all this to bash your French, it is very good ;o) I just want to point out that every language is hard to speak and write perfectly (at least the ones I know : French, English and Mandarin, I have to venture a guess for the others …). In other words, I think your analysis concerning the difficulty of a language linked to common vocabulary is mostly relevant for passive knowledge. I never studied Italian and yes a read a technical text of Italian much more easily than the same text in Chinese. I could probably understand “calcium chloride” in Italian. However, I you ask me how to say “calcium chloride” in Italian, I don't know. And when I write English, there are often “frenchism”, words which are not exactly English, or words which evolved differently and are now pedantic in English while perfectly normal in French.
I am with you for the proper names however, not to put the real name is stupid (the opposite is true too, imagine I find a interesting article about a minor Chinese personality in a western newspaper, how am I supposed to find more information with only a pinyin without tones ?).
And of course, I also believe that Chinese is the hardest language in the world, if only to justify the hard work and years of fun I am having learning it …
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ULN回复：
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Hi Pierre. Yeah pity you come a bit late in the conversation, but dont worry, the thread is still open.
Regarding my French, I think you would be surprised. In speaking I have an accent, but in writing I tend to do less mistakes than my French colleagues. The same happens to me in English and Spanish, it is just because my main hobby is reading, and the fact is most people out there just dont read so much, even in their native language. So the situation is that I have read more French books than most French people my age (who rarely read). This includes things as varied as Proust, the whole series of San Antonio and memorizing all the songs of Brassens (which I used to play on the guitar). Similar situation with my English.
Admittedly, from my writing people could tell I am not native, but not because my mistakes are too many, rather because they are different form mistakes natives do. Also because there is a phenomenon of hypercorrection, and a style that tends to be too grammatical, as opposed to the natural transcription of speech. But I don't mind too much these things, and I take heart in the knowledge that even the great Nabokov had this problem and some scholars have counted dozens of grammar faults in Lolita. There is still hope for me
Back to the main topic though: your calcium chloride/cloruro de calcio, etc is an example of what I call Code as opposed to Data. There a re simple rules to follow (ie in English it is -ide ending where in Spanish (Italian?) it is -uro ). But the words are the same. In Chinese you have to learn not only the Code rules, but also the whole set of roots for each element and most used combinations in organic chemistry PLUS you have to learn a character for each of them! So just to repeat again: I am not saying all the languages are THE SAME at a high level, I am just saying their Data element is the same. The Code element is much easier to master once you are already in the upper intermediate.
Re: ONU is the same in Spanish as in French, no NU. Regarding dystopia, it is just a writing typo, it reminds me of a common error called the Attila/Atilla conversion (search the language log if you are curious) where it is common for native writers to mistake the position of one double consonant where there are 2 possibilites. Anyway, things like ONU and dystopia dont give me away as foreign. What does give me away is using “safety” instead of “security”, for example, because both are the same in Spanish… etc.
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Have you ever considered about adding a little bit more than just your articles? I mean, what you say is important and all. But think of if you added some great photos or videos to give your posts more, “pop”! Your content is excellent but with pics and videos, this site could definitely be one of the greatest in its niche. 真棒博客！
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Whether you get the job you want really depends on your answers during the interview, even so during this economic crisis!
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