中国和互联网的世界地图
2009年12月4日,书面Julen马达里亚加我昨晚摆弄一些统计数据,考虑到中国互联网心胸狭窄 ,我们一直在讨论最近的奇怪的想法。 表达本身就是奇怪,因为“互联网”和“与世隔绝”,形成一个矛盾,但你很难注意到这些东西,当你住在这里。 它是土地在社会主义市场经济的正常程序。
不管我们作出的短语,事实是,它每次,无论是讲语言 , 传媒或政治 ,一切似乎都指向这个方向。 下面的图片是我尝试画一个互联网的世界地图来说明这个岛国,从网站上使用互联网世界统计数据。
这里是我:我与所有国家的统计,超过10万互联网用户,这使得在总共32从中国到摩洛哥的第一个想法。 然后我做了一个Excel图表,每个气泡的面积比例到该国的互联网用户,关键的是,我充满了矩阵码的气泡。 结果:世界地图的矩阵:
互联网矩阵的世界地图
在上面的地图中的一个有趣的事情是,亚洲已经是世界上最大的互联网领域。 惊人的,但不是真的,毕竟,它拥有迄今为止世界上人口最多。 这是没有什么比什么来:互联网与中国和印度的增长将是在未来几年亚洲联合。 没有他们,没有命中,将真正全球净。 到现在为止,在网络上的大多数人都从现在大多数发达国家,将来自发展中国家。 我们的社会之间的密切联系,将有在线和离线的重要后果。 也就是说,假如我们真的管理连接。
但是,当我们谈到互联网,它并不太大的意义来看待政治的界限。 有没有这样的边境控制线上,真正团结或分裂人民是文化的东西。 最重要的参数是一个特别的语言:不管你的国籍,作为一个用户定义你的语言你上网,这是为什么我的浏览习惯,更喜欢这个看起来Blogger的不是像有人在我的国家的原因: ESWN,我有完全不同的背景,但我们有共同的冲浪语言。
所以我抬起头来的统计,在互联网上最常用的语言,从英语到韩国10。 这一次,我彩色的气泡与标志,我把他们大约在他们的发言者的社会重心的中心。 结果是地图冲浪语言:
冲浪语言的世界地图
尽管如此,地图不是很大。 许多扬声器在庞大的英语泡沫实际上是印度人,西班牙应该是在美国和欧洲,和澳大利亚是完全出来的照片。 物理距离有没有净的意思,甚至比政治界限。 它变得清晰,地理是我的目的没有多大用处,所以我们不妨转储GMaps实现和坚持气泡。
我的新图看起来像这样,在所有主要的互联网社区的代表一起在云。 我们都是相互关联的,只有坚实的区别是语言。 两个人共享一个爱好,喜欢足球,但他们不走相同的网站,如果他们在不同的语言上网。 媒体和互联网上的资源大部分都没有翻译成其他语言,而是重新编写和重新诠释,由当地部落客/记者,社区之间的边界控制功能。
改进互联网的云世界地图:
我们在云中看到的事情之一是,所有的社区都互相接触。 但我恐怕这不是一个非常精确的图片。 通常俄罗斯不翻译日本的内容,也没有葡萄牙语翻译阿拉伯语。 英语有今天在互联网上的重要作用,因为在大多数情况下,它是通过英语,其余的语言沟通:大多数内容是英语翻译第一,并从那里向其他社区。 英语的泡沫,包括来自世界各地的用户,是互联网的中心。
云的另一个问题是,它显示了所有同样互联社区,这是不太现实的。 谁讲欧洲语言的用户更容易阅读英文。 西班牙社会,例如,包括许多美国人许多他们自己的语言上网的英文网站。 其实,大部分的语言泡沫的与英文泡沫像素的重要组成部分,所以我们可以维恩图的排序为代表的地图:
第二次迭代:维恩图地图
我们看到从上一个新的地图是非常不同的。 现在有一个共享的内容很多西方语言与英语,更多的语言,分享了一下,俄语和阿拉伯语,然后三种语言,形成了今日亚洲互联网的核心集群:中国,韩国和日本。 和你可能已经注意到,我得出中国在其余的距离。
由于种种原因,我们将看到,中国人不使用Facebook或Twitter的,或YouTube或MySpace,或eBay。 他们不读Boing Boing“ 赫芬顿邮报“ ,他们在自己的QQ聊天室聊天。 他们很少收到,我们收到的病毒邮件,反而得到一个和别人一样。 他们所有的事情,我们有一些,但他们建立了他们对互联网的独立包裹并行。
而基于以上的气泡的大小是由一个受人尊敬的收集定量数据源 ,位置才决定由半知情的感觉。 任何读者可能会说,中国不应该是迄今为止对。 有香港,华裔美国人,甚至中国大陆做英语冲浪。 ,我将被迫承认的维恩图是有缺陷的,因为它未能证明了这一点。
但是,在这样一个像互联网世界瞬息万变,位置真的没什么意思。 今天举行的明天可能会有所不同。 什么是真正重要的是动态的方向是中国,以及如何将在10年的上网查查? 大家都同意,中国互联网社区发展非常迅速,这是自然的。 令人担忧的部分是,它也可能被移动从休息。
第三次迭代:动态地图
因为在西方国家的互联网普及率已经非常高,印度仍然处于滞后状态,在未来10年中国互联网将成为大几乎所有的休息起来。 如果继续偏离,它可能会成长为一个平行的网络,像月亮黑暗的一面,一个巨大的,自给自足的岛屿,政府可以随时切出,里面大多数人甚至没有注意到其中的差别。 这违背了整个构思的www。
不管问题的真实规模,这是大多数观察家认为是中国和互联网的其余部分之间的断开连接 ,并有强大的力量,拉他们远一点。 幸运的是,也有力量平衡,并在未来数年的结果将在很大程度上取决于这些因素如何发挥互相对抗。 这里是我的新的地图现在看起来如何:
互联网的力量
正如我们所看到的这个博客之前,一些主要因素,使从中国独立的世界有以下几种,在图表中红色所示:
- 语言 ,因为我们在此看到后 ,我们证明了中国的语言是美丽和独特的,在许多方面,但它使中国人与外国人连接,它很难。
- 文化 ,在广义上的字,这意味着社区有不同的看法和价值观,他们无法理解彼此。 这包括与媒体的问题。
- 政治 ,多种形式,包括保姆,中国长城防火墙(GFW),直接抓人,中共的蓄意行动,因为我们看到这里 。
在绿色的主要因素,在向相反的方向去。 在这里,他们在细节上,乐观欢喜:
- 越来越多的桥梁, 博客和其他互联网使用,连接两个社区的工作。 这些措施包括不仅英语Chinablogs,但主要是中国人的翻译对中国互联网的外国媒体和其他内容。 从这个不起眼的博客,我也做了我对桂枝茯苓丸位 。
- 后的90年代和80年代的一代,已经占主导地位的中国互联网。 他们的个人品味艺术,音乐或电影可能会更加国际化,并推动他们与世界接轨。 这一点是辩论的对象,不过,一些西方人是非常怀疑的80后。
- 业务是连结中国走向世界的最重要因素之一。 由于欧盟的建设,这是没有任何秘密,电子商务可以实现世界和平的最雄心勃勃的目标,所以不管你的起飞是对那些经营头脑的中国人 ,他 们很可能是主力仍保持连接中国的岛屿和控股万维网一起。
你觉得呢? 你有什么想法?
你觉得我夸张? 或者是问题甚至比这更糟的吗? 任何因素,我错过了在互联网地图? 上网的朋友:你是彩色气泡内的像素,你对这个世界知道,因为它是你的家:评论和帮助我提高我的地图!
















5
上午
这很有趣,你提到的桥梁博客联合国的作用,特别是因为这一原则,在两个方向运行。 中国互联网的宝石之一,是译言,让使用者可以翻译成中文的英文文章。
我把译言,当然,因为它最近被关闭 。 在译言的人提供了以下的解释性发言:
当你得到它的疏远你提到的三种类型,在语言学和文化领域的工作有非常强大的力量,这些都使得这些因素随着时间的推移越来越少有关。 我们正在学习彼此的语言和有真正的兴趣是一个由太平洋两岸加强文化交流的重要。 甚至像反CNN.com政治导向的网站仍然是一个文化的交流,因为该网站的机制,使英语的内容,方便中国读者。 三个,其中只有一个,即“政治”之一,涉及组织与机构(中共)故意和积极试图削弱和关闭警戒线英语和汉语语言的网上社区之间的文化交流。
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5
!
您好,感谢信息。 这是一个巧合,我没有读过单位“的文章之前,我张贴了这个,我不知道译言被关闭。 这类网站发挥了重要作用的因特网连接。 我希望这只是一个临时块,但谁知道,你不能指望在桂枝茯苓丸是合理的。
一般,我觉得像译言的努力应该被复制,或新的想法,双方开始。 有互联网专家大部分是小工具痴迷的业务分析师,我觉得我们正在失去什么是真正重要的焦点。
真正的交易是不约Twitter或Facebook或技术统计员狂欢的那些东西。 这些东西的唯一工具,真正的交易是连接在互联网上(或没有连接)世界各地的人们。 这些相互作用会改变世界,它的发生,已经和99%的高科技博客找到一个放屁的iPod应用程序更有趣的发言!!
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5
!
我很喜欢您的文章很多,你正在试图做的是一些真正的高端概念的东西,所以也许我失去了一些东西,但我不完全同意您的文章。 首先,“中国没有Facebook或Twitter的,或YouTube或MySpace,或eBay。 他们不读Boing Boing“赫芬顿邮报”,他们在自己的QQ聊天室聊天。“中国使用MSN和SKYPE,而不是QQ的吨,而他们可能无法使用在大量关于这些网站,你说,美国人和日本通常不连接上Facebook或Twitter或者(和有女士默多克的MySpace的努力)。
我也看到了凯撒的想法跟你完全不同。 他在谈论美国和中国的世界之间的直接连接的网络划分人,而你说,由于语言和桂枝茯苓丸(对不起,简单化),是非常有限的连接。 虽然事情LKE桂枝茯苓丸肯定妨碍了中国在与那些中国以外的触摸得到的能力,仍然有很多机会进行连接,其中许多是帮助大量的海外中国人的社会存在,在几乎每个国家在世界上。
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ULN回复:
2009年12月5日下午02:47
1点:MSN是很习惯,我知道,和Skype以及。 但这些都是时代的大多数只意味着说你的朋友或打电话给你的表弟在伦敦的学生是谁。 但他们很少连接并交换想法的人你不知道的地方。 QQ,FACEBOOK,YOUTUBE等地方文化混合多的地方。 我看到这对西班牙很多,例如人们共享来自美国,其中只有10 yars前没有人知道有关的影片和东西。 Facebook是相同的,现在我有外国朋友的负载,我要为他们写英语,它并没有使用像。 当然,像你这样说,大多数美国人仍然没有气泡仍未完全集成的日本朋友在facebook / twitter等,但重要的是趋势:世界日益紧密,中国是不是它(的一部分吗? )
2点:我同意,我从来没有说过我的想法是Kaiser的相同。 但他们不相抵触的,他们只是两个同一问题的两面。 他主要讲的误解,我讲的脱节。 这部分是因为有一个断开的误会发生。 当人们有netfriends,Facebook上的朋友,Twitter的追随者等,从不同的国家,他们往往是对这个国家更温和,并尝试从对方的角度看到的东西。
例如,当美国/中国/等政客说一些愚蠢的事,我不走,并发表激进文章说最多的国家是如何FKD,因为我有很多美国/中国/等。 读者,我必须要三思而后行,如果我被击中“发布”按钮之前,公平。 在反CNN的人大多不会有外国朋友,他们采取了冲突的一面。 友谊(即使它只是一种光友谊的Facebook),导致克制和理解。
再次,我说趋势,是走向融合的社区,或社区的分歧。 最后2地图是重要的,真的。
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5
!
有趣的文章。 我觉得我在地图上的重叠和我的语言之一,也符合我的复杂身份:/
我(多代)新加坡华裔,大多数新加坡人一样,我的主要工作语言是英语,虽然我和我的家人在家讲普通话和中国方言。 我的中国(读/写,尤其是)是不是只要我的英语由于我的青春和英语的统治地位,在当地环境中的本地双语课程无效。
我最喜欢的新加坡人(人们通常假设我不是亚洲时,他们遇到我在线)主要冲浪英语互联网。 不过,我也经常看的东西,在中国或日本的互联网(我的第三个语言)。
我想在新加坡老一辈可能在中国更舒适(我父亲的浏览器的网页是一些中国的新闻门户网站),所以我想中国互联网的使用将根据到精通。
偶尔与中国大陆的网上聊天,我的印象是,年轻的都在如饥似渴地学习英语的商业理由令人印象深刻的热情,相信它会为他们带来光明的future.I“恐怕我不能真正了解它,因为我长大英语作为一种实用工具。 因为我已经知道英语,是不是真的,我真的迫切需要学习语言。 虽然我真的应该刷了我的中国(部分为面子的原因!)。
我与中国大陆(中国)聊天在线和她评论说,它感到很奇怪,我们是在同一种语言交流,虽然我们属于不同countries.I不太有同样的感觉,因为我通常输入英文即使我讲普通话,我的父母疏远感。
大多数第一代和1.5代海外的中国人出生在中国教育(部分),往往是爱国的,并保持对正在发生的事情的Chinese.Yes回到家里,他们交换温爷爷的照片标签。
在西方的第二代,语言能力趋于到drop.In东南亚,马来西亚中国已收到相当大量的教育在中国的学校,可在Chinese.They相当不错,也明白马来文和英文,因为他们需要。
重新印度人:大家都知道,很多很多他们不懂英语,即使他们的语言命令imperfect.I认为中国大陆可能赶上最终though.Despite英语上花费了巨额的,大多数日本人不精通英语他们最不需要它无论如何。 我在日本,由日本。
PS我想学习第四语言。 这将是一个在地图上的。 有人建议,因为我了解中国和日本,韩国。 建议的人吗?
PSS的,我想到的是开始对东亚文化的博客,因为我在这个世界上,即使我什至不住在那里的一部分利益。 我不知道它是否会成为我的荒谬?
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ULN回复:
2009年12月5日下午07:12
重语言:我自己的意见,是坚持以中文或英文,他们既有大量的语言,在世界最大的在原材料词汇方面,你在地图上看到,他们是目前在互联网上使用。 即使你是在这些语言的原生,你仍然可以继续提高你的语言文字,大多数以英语为母语不知道甚至一半的词汇可用!
此外,所有的西方气泡群正在慢慢合并成英文(内容是非常相似或翻译/英语)作为主要的互联网的书面语言,所以可能在未来将有2大独立两极:英语及普通话。 这2种语言将是了解互联网的关键。
我正在学习德语3年之前,我开始普通话,我什至在德国度过了几个月。 但后来我到中国,我意识到这是一个学习的一生。 因为我已经决定退出学习更多的语言和达到的最高水平,我可以在英文和中文。
这个博客是我的努力得到英语的一部分,我觉得我写的更流利,现在比一年前,当我开始在博客(我希望与人造阿美族少)。
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5
!
欢迎的Chinternet,自2006年以来一直被称为中国互联网。 这是特殊的,它有一个特殊的名字。 我们也有在中国的Myspace。
真正需要做的是看在区域间的数据传输到一个区域内的数据流的比例。 例如,数据流数据流的中国在中国境内。 这给了¨¨岛国共同的时间间隔比上述方法更真实指标。 如果数据是可用的。
但是,你需要的规模效应,让 - 因为中国的互联网会更狭隘的比说,比利时,因为中国是如此之大,几乎所有的中国人能想到的是,国内的,所以他们不太需要国际/区域连接。 我的意思是,即使没有语言或其他障碍,会有一些在中国或美国连接到集群。
人必须有书面的博士论文,在这一切
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ULN回复:
2009年12月5日下午06:33
你是完全正确的,这个问题是重要的,有人应做适当的研究。 唯一我在这里做的是设置了一个框架,并提出问题。 我没有答案,因为我没有时间自己做任何认真的研究,我的依据是中国互联网只是我自己的经验,并在上海,我亲密的朋友。
另一方面,我不知道这些东西是可衡量的,至少不会把它的方式,。 有可能是一种方法来估计多少数据和中国互联网,但你怎么分开的真正内容的噪音? 你怎么知道是流写液对CNN到它,或者干脆在美国参加在他们的家论坛的中国人生活的反CNN的人有多少? 这些东西,肯定是“连接”难道计数......我宁愿想象基于用户调查(已经存在的一些研究,但几乎都集中营销,而不是政治文化问题)。
重的Myspace:哎呀,感谢更正,我会编辑。 不过,我不认为它是如此之大,在美国(至少我从来没有见过我的朋友/同事使用它)。
UPDATE:刚才检查,很快就谷歌和它看起来像Myspace在中国有增长了不少麻烦,甚至计划的业务进行重组。 其部分原因似乎是审查。 请参阅此连结
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5
!
相当准确的地图,虽然我会说,日本和韩国的网络是不挂钩的英语。 当然不是政治为中国的独立,但大多数日本/韩国人不会说英语和所有在美国的内容不感兴趣。 我已经超过日本,防火墙和所有在Facebook更多的中国朋友。
我不知道以及有关阿拉伯的内容。
兰花:呸,韩国人不值得。 而朝鲜语是很容易了解其疼痛的屁股,读它的整个页面:非行距统一的语音脚本? 同音字满了吗? 还不如聪明,因为他们认为。
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5
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的确,当我的事情让我感到惊讶的最多的是英语水平低,甚至在东京,在日本, 这实在是不以这种方式从中国不同。 但另一方面,似乎是日本人和西方人之间的接触更多的文化,日本流行文化在西方的吸引力,他们也没有GFW的问题或与DL等政治问题......
我的地图中的一个薄弱点是,我有没有真正的数据,以4球的位置:俄文,阿拉伯文,日本和韩国。 我的地图是在这方面的猜测。 但是我为他们每个人有充分理由认为有一个断开比中国少,因为在文化,政治和语言的差距较小,他们有没有桂枝茯苓丸,还因为中国的泡沫是更大,更快的成长比其中4人一起加入......
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5
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好东西。 我认为OU将进一步完善它。 保持它。 我敢肯定时间来在你的映射会是一个政治家,作为世界变得越来越小的参考点,更加集中在少数人手中的权力。 搜索引擎将使用您的映射,制定不同的广告计划,以创造更多的收入。 我可以看到这样的映射关系的潜力。
只有一个分歧点。 在今后一个时期,中国的泡沫将连接和结合英文泡沫。 多的中国人学习和使用英语,和其他讲英语的民族学习汉语。 这可能不是一朝一夕的事,也许下一代,但它正在迅速增长。
我还有机会后,9中央电视台英语全国英语演讲比赛。 我是如此深刻的印象,我看,随后整个系列。 中国将成为与讲英语的世界综合更快比大多数人认为。
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6
上午
我想指出重要的旅游仍然创造了解的一种方式。 作为强大的互联网信息传输的工具,它不这样做很好。
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6
上午
您好ULN -
总是喜欢读您的博客,现在你写的东西我做的工作是相当接近,我爱你开始直接对应,也许你买啤酒下一次你在北京是或我在上海。 你有我的电子邮件,当你得到一个机会,请给我一张纸条。 我想送你的,我给10月在美国国会图书馆更充分的一些事情,你链接到涉及的CNReviews发表讲话的全文。 在此期间,请跟上伟大的工作!
最好的,
凯撒
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6
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杰夫 - 好评,这正是这个职位的主要点什么,我想在这里讨论。 许多中国人正在学习Engish,是的,如果内地与世界之间的节点上的流量测量,确保它们是红色的热数据来来往往。 但我关心的是,超过定量定性:有接触肯定,但在他们的理解是多少? 我们建立一个全球互联网社群的意义? 还是这些接触疏远其余的华人社区有相反的效果?
@ FOARP - 是的,但互联网的一点是,整个世界将很快它有平等的机会,而洲际旅行很长一段时间仍然是发达社会的特权。 无论净的局限性,它具有更可能改变比周游世界。
@凯瑟 - 当然。 对,谢谢!
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FOARP回复:
2009年12月6日,10:23 PM
是啊,这是千真万确的。 我想说,虽然是,甚至懒得去访问国外网站的利益不只是从哪儿来的东西。 如果我从来没有去过中国,我肯定不会打扰冲浪中国网站,就像现在我在访问非洲,南美,印度网站的利益,只有边际。 旅游创造利益,这也给现实世界的压力表来衡量你看一个国家的未来。
平均反CNNer有没有什么发生在西班牙,英国,或美国的利益,但如何在这些国家的媒体报道关于中国的故事。 中国网民平均也缺乏兴趣在这些国家,因为他们是自己的生活无关的事务,因此只会成为知道他们的民族主义的表兄弟连接件。 没有带宽或更易于访问通过语言培训的增长将减少这种误解,现在的事务已经下跌到目前的反馈环。 “胜出”的论点在互联网上确实没有改变这一点 - 我说此人已经花了几年时间在争论,其中许多现在看来毫无意义的。
这确实在一定程度上唯一提供现实压力表,用来衡量通过互联网提供的民族主义者的言论是电影,音乐谈论的情况下,直接在更广阔的世界,其吸引力在于他们的艺术美德的人,互联网并给予更大的访问。 我记得,尤其是中国的Radiohead的球迷震惊的反应时,他们发现,Radiohead的支持自由西藏运动。 这可以做一些事情起飞妖魔化边缘。
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FOARP回复:
2009年12月6日下午10:52
前阵子安德鲁Sullivan进行报价相当不错,把这个问题上他的博客。 它比建立垃圾信息(“乌拉圭正准备对以色列的核打击”)和其反制(“乌拉圭是南美国家这是不是从来没有显示任何发展核武器或威胁以色列的迹象”)加密和解密。 简言之,它始终是信息加密解密比从头开始,因为加密的要求只有一个级别的复杂性(例如,“想到一个可笑的谎言”),而对付它,你需要两个或两个以上作为必须首先接触垃圾信息前,你可以反驳它(例如,“认为这是荒谬的谎言,为什么是假的”)。 在某些情况下,人们已经拥有必要的信息,但在其中,他们不这样做或他们的信息在支持垃圾信息(即在一个地区本身也是垃圾)。
正是这个原因,例如,大多数英国人认为,欧盟一直寻求禁止柔韧香蕉,因为否定这个,你必须先解释为什么这是不可能的(即,欧盟没有能力,使法规这个特定的区域和时间的问题,任何国家的否决,企图建立一个指令)。 信息驳斥原来的谎言,是在大多数情况下,更难理解比原来的垃圾信息。 互联网迄今传播在于更迅速,比它繁殖的钥匙,以打击这类的谎言。 因此,放置在正确的地方(例如,人谁不知道,乌拉圭)和一些花哨的图形作为后盾,我在一开始的谎言将达到许多被一些人认为。
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6
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Uln: I have known for some time about the massive amount of data in the Chinese internet but I don't work in a tech startup. I'm more concerned about whether polishing up my Chinese will be useful in my offline life here in sg. Frankly speaking, learning a new language is more fun than practicing an old one. I certainly admit that my Chinese is not up to standard. (^_^;) I just wonder if it would be more efficient just to hire a Chinese national if really good Chinese language skills are needed. There is certainly no shortage of people who are expert at Chinese where I am. The question is whether it would become an essential skill for all.小时候,
Oh, some young mainland Chinese learn Japanese or Korean. My impression is that they do it because of business or interest in the pop cultures.
I am too poor to travel at the moment so I am enjoying the internet resources. In the old days when people migrated, it was pretty hard to keep in touch with the “old country”. It's different nowadays…
I am curious about how much contact Taiwanese have with their mainland counterparts. It seems that Taiwanese have their own bbs and blog networks. Of course, there's the traditional vs simplified characters issue but it's still the same language. QQ is pretty much a mainland Chinese thing.
Re: Japanese and Koreans. Japanese have their own social networks like mixi and Koreans have Cyworld. I'm not sure what is hot now because I'm not following Japanese trends avidly nowadays but Japanese have their own social etiquette for online networking. It seems to me that the Japanese and Koreans are pretty much self-sufficient (Koreans have their own portals/search engines) in that they can get everything they want in their own language. Koreans are very wired and Japanese surf the net using their mobiles.
However a lot of foreigners are interested in Japanese culture (less so for Korean) so they often learn Japanese and translate content for other English speakers. For Japan, this translated content tends to be in the areas of technology/design, traditional culture/cooking or pop culture/fashion. Chinese bridge bloggers tend to concentrate on heavy-hitting topics like politics and social issuesヽ(´ー`)┌ Korean wave mostly affects Asians (in East Asia and Southeast Asia) and Asian diasporas. Mostly young ones who are crazy about Korean dramas and music and they learn Korean to enjoy the stuff.
Actually, I could write a whole thesis on why Westerners like Japan and dislike China and why they find Japanese culture more fascinating (>_ Right now, China doesn't have a well-developed, attractively packaged pop culture ready to be exported to the masses yet that would draw attention.
Anyway, people dying for analysis of Super Girl and stuff like that can visit this blog.
http://cfensi.wordpress.com/
As a Singaporean, I can say that we are more tuned to Taiwanese pop than mainland stuff which receives little exposure here. I think my childhood was the Hong Kong entertainment golden age boom lol Anyway, I'm too old to be into all this stuff. ( ̄ー ̄)
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6
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Hi Uln
有一点可以肯定,是互联网上留下自己的,将永远连接,从来没有疏远。 除非有干预,无论是由西部或东部政治家。
The vital point is that the Chinese and English blocks are fast emerging. Initially integration may be solely quantitative. That does not matter, thats always the first stage that any development must go through. Gradually and naturally the quality will develop, whilst the quantity will grow even more.
I would dare venture to say that you may find in the near future, the Japanese and Korean blocks integrating into the Chinese block.
Cheers
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6
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I was inspired by your analysis of the worldwide internet condition. I'ma post 80s native Chinese who happen to be able to surf the net in both CH and EN. I think you might consider adding to your bridge part between the two communites those getting-over-the-wall programs on the net, made conveniently for a lot of people including me to use them literally to know the real stuff outside the wall. As long as the GFW policy continues, it is the English language instead of Chinese that should be adopted as language bridge to lead to mutual communication, the reason simply being English users are free to use it to express themselves while the Chinese users not.
Another thing, I don't quite understand what you mean by saying “This point is object of debate though, and some Westerners are very skeptical of the post 80s”. First of all, the post 80s and 90s are hugely different in the values, thinking styles, and social positions they are holding, not to mention the difference between people born in 80-84 and those in 85-89, roughly. A lot of, if not most of, the post 80s are starting to work or already been working for several years, and they know with their personal experiences about the real society and the pains of living in it.
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ULN回复:
2009年12月6日,10:19下午
Interesting, I am not so familiar with the differences between the different generations of post 80s/90s. It would be useful if you have some good link where we can read about that a bit more in detail, even if it is in Chinese.
As for the phrase “… some Westerners are very skeptical of the post 80s”, just follow the link in that phrase, it should lead you to a post about Han Han and a recent interview he had with Time magazine, where your generation is defined by some American scholars with a phrase that you might find interesting.. in particular they mentioned an “unspoken compact with the government” if I remember well. You might want to check that out.
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6
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Very interesting analysis.
I was just walking outside on the street and saw my first ad (for a real estate development) on which the domain name was in chinese characters (since the new regulation was passed). I'm very much on the fence with this: I understand that not everyone should use alphabet, but it could regionalize some areas of the net even more.
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Uln Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Ah, I still havent seen any site with character URL! wow, I am curious now, I am going to find one on google see how it looks in the navigation bar.
And good point about the regionalization as well. I am not sure chinese URLs are going to be so big, but it certainly doesnt go in the right direction.
Do you imagine if the URL for google.cn was 谷歌.中国?This would ensure that absolutely no foreigner ever goes into that site (because they dont even know how to type it!)
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6
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[moderated off topic]
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Uln Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
John, this is completely off-topic. Sorry don't want to put you off, but I remind everyone to please stick to the topic, I am trying to have a debate to learn about the Chinese internet and these comments are very distracting.
If anyone wants to speak of different things please just find a post that is related to that subject or else write it in my contact form on the sidebar and I will answer. 谢谢!
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Uln, check it out, took a pic of it..
: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ybouc/4162740888/ (it's still “.cn” though, the .中国 is coming next year, i heard?)
Now, having such domain names in themselves is fine. If Baidu wants to use both Baidu.CN and 百度.中国 , that's not a problem. In fact, the former might be more convenient, just because it requires less keystrokes.
The problem is not so much on the domain names system itself, but how they will be advertised.
If everyone starts publishing only their domain in chinese characters, then that is really a step back on the “global” angle of the net. If you do both, that's fine.
Again, I understand that you'd wanna localize the interface (and I guess that is why Japan and Korea use “search for [name of thing] on [search engine]!” rather than put the URL in their ads. But they sometimes do both as well.
Anyways, it COULD be a slippery slope, and I hope it isn't, because this affects China, of course, but it could also affect arab countries, Israel, Japan, Korea, and many more.
Let's see how it plays out, I guess…
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Uln Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
我明白。 On second thought I am not sure this will be so important. Because I assume sites that advertise in character URLs are all written in Chinese anyway, so for a non Chinese speaker it wouldnt make any difference if the URL was pinyin, it would just make him waste one click. I dont think any company will be so dumb as to pay the whole translation of their site to English and then advertise only in characters..
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7
上午
Uln: yeah, that's true indeed. it might cause some issues when your chinese skills are just on the fence, though..
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7
上午
Uln,
有趣的东西。 虽然我同意桂枝茯苓丸是促进和可能加强所谓的“脱节”的中文和英文的泡沫之间,我不买你的猜测,断开度之间的英语泡沫和阿拉伯语,俄语,韩语和日语(基本上是所有非西方语言气泡)泡沫是小于它是与中国的泡沫。 你说你有“强有力的理由认为”没有提供具体的。 您认为他们的“文化,政治和语言的差距是较小的”,我不知道如何。 政治,俄语和阿拉伯语的互联网用户同样作为中国人,如果不是更脱离他们的西方同行。 作为中国西部文化的韩国和日本也同样脱离。
In my opinion it is a no-brainer that language and culture play much more vital roles in creating and reinforcing the disconnect between any two bubbles than anything else, including the GFW. The fact that we speak different languages and have different cultural roots and perspectives determines that there will always be some degrees of disconnect. It is nothing to be afraid of. Don't get me wrong, I do think people should communicate and exchange ideas with other people (especially people of other countries, cultures and backgrounds), I just don't think that we need to eradicate the disconnect and be all the same. That would be extremely boring and dangerous. In the case of China vs. the west or any country A vs. country B for that matter, the disconnect exists because (1) most people have too many mundane things to worry about and they are simply not interested in what's going on in the other country/part of the world; (2) language barrier (enough said); (3) even without language barrier cultural differences set people apart. There will always be a disconnect between an English-speaking American and an English-speaking Chinese. Likewise there will always be a disconnect between an English speaking Chinese and an English-speaking Korean. People see things differently, it is this simple.
Of course the Chinese don't read Boing Boing or the Huffington Post, just like most westerners don't read Sohu or Tianya. I don't see there is anything wrong with that, it is what makes this whole internet thing amazing. If we were all to read more or less the same stuff, it would be so dreadful.
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7
上午
Uln,
One more thing: Perhaps it is just me (excuse me if the following makes no sense to you at all), but is there a tiny dose of cultural chauvinism in this whole thing? Somehow I (again, perhaps it is just me) sensed that the disconnect becomes worrisome because western governments/strategists/analysts/scholars/intellectuals/commentators fear that the Chinese will be further drifting away from the current western-centric world order and creating their own world? That this disconnect is only going to cripple and paralyze the west's ability to influence China?
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wangba Reply:
December 7th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Ah, but that's only assuming that a “connection” implies some degree of influence. But if you look at the “connected” countries pictured above, I do not believe that Korean, Japanese, or Arabic internet is really influenced by English internet at all.
I think the picture is a bit misleading. The countries grouped together gives sort of a wrong impression. It would probably work better as a web-like diagram, where it would show how well connected each country's internet is to each other. I would imagine that more visitors from around the world visit the English speaking internet than the Chinese one, perhaps that's the point being presented here.
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Juchechosunmanse Reply:
December 7th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Sure, only because English is the international lingua franca, not Chinese.
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arek oner Reply:
January 10th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
Don't forget that it connection implies a possibility for mutual influence and understanding. It's a two way street. Just as weel as either the US or China could use it to extand their soft power.
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7
上午
Orchid,
Your observations on why the majority of westerners (we are not talking about those scholarly people like Uln here,
) prefer Japanese culture over the Chinese are spot on. In short, China's current image as a totalitarian, backward, third-world, not-so-creative and quite clumsy country simply doesn't look appealing to most people. Plus there is the fear factor: that China might one day become an equal vis-a-vis the west, an entity that is perceived as powerful enough to challenge the west. This thought of course doesn't bode well for most westerners. For the same reason they will always be wary of Russia, unless Russia becomes part of the west (which is possible). It is always more comforting and safer to be drawn by the very exotic Guyana. 
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arek oner Reply:
January 10th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
I wouldn't say thats exactly how the west perceives China. Even some liberal journalists have been making statement in the press that they recognize China's political and economical effeciency lately. Also China is already an equal vis-a-vis the west. The American military strategy is based on high technology which relies heavily on information. By destroying one of their own satelite in 2007 China as proven that it is able to shut down the whole communication system for the information so crucial to the United States millitary. Should we also mention the US$ 1000 billion worth of US bonds the middle knigdom aquired recently? Now, let's look at the progress of China's economy over the last 40 years. Hunger was endemic in the 60′s and now China can afford to “buy” america! Only a superior political, strategical and economical culture could acheive such results so fast. If its better, faster and stronger, of course the west will want to learn about it and the fear might just fuel that demand for knowledge, if fear there is. Just think about the buzz on Japanese management methods back in the 70′ and 80′, America was terrorise at the rise of Japan in the economic war they were wagging but they sure wanted to learn what made them so great. Universities and libraries were filled with books on the subject. Japan has just lost two decades, China will surely steel the show. No need for inferiority complex on any side of the bargain.
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Wukailong Reply:
January 11th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
有趣。 I never thought about shooting down satellites, although I remember that particular piece of news. Looks like the US has an Achilles' heel right there.
On the other hand, inferring from China's success that it has a “a superior political, strategical and economical culture” really seems like a stretch to me. Good management and successful reforms? Definitely. But for me it looks like people get over-enthusiastic just because of China's sheer size. It's not unlike the previous “tiger economies” technically or economically, it's just much bigger.
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8
上午
Can you surf into my website?
I found your blog originally via ESWN and I find the posts interesting as well more than a few of the comments. I am returning to live and do business in Dalian with my Chinese wife this time! I look forward to reading your posts often!
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11
上午
Before I say anything I want to clear things up by saying that whatever I type below has NOTHING to do with politics.
I just want to add Taiwan to the map because of its influences in Mandarin Chinese movies, music and the still young democracy. Taiwan is not often mentioned in international media due to its small size and population. But it is a place where the Chinese speaking people can speak freely to the world.
Now on to the map. Strictly speaking, Taiwan is officially called republic of china, but it is not considered a country by most nations. That is clear. But it does have its own flag. So I think you can put Taiwan near Japan and Korea (a smaller circle though)and connected to China. And since it uses mainly Chinese, it will overlaps with China more than the others in the future.
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Kevin B Reply:
December 14th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Willie,
The English language flag uses the current UK flag, though England is only one (though by far the major) part of the UK on the one hand and the USA is the country with the largest number of native-English speakers.
I think Uln just had to decide on the flag of the sovereign nation now ruling the area whence came the language. So no English flag, since it's not sovereign (since 1707), and no American flag, since it's a daughter country, not the source of English.
Similarly, the Yellow River valley is controlled by the People's Republic of China. Also, the Republic of Korea has more people than the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, so its flag is shown. (Perhaps Korean culture came more from what's now controlled by the North, but who really knows?) Cf. Spanish flag instead of Mexican, Portuguese flag instead of Brazilian, Saudi flag instead of Egyptian, German flag instead of, well, never mind.
So, though the ROC (Taiwan) may need to be noted in the text, it's not home to one of the top-10 languages on the net.
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13
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I've really enjoyed the articles you do on how China, both linguistically and by internet, is becoming (or continuing to be) its own self-contained society.
With Facebook, twitter, youtube and so many other things blocked in China for the foreseeable future, I've been thinking of switching over to local equivalents (language not a problem – I'm an expat that has spent almost 2 decades in greater China), but have been having trouble figuring out which is which, or in the case of youku, how to find things on it. Could you possibly provide some pointers? I don't want to be left out of the Web 2.0 anymore.
谢谢
Mike
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julia Reply:
May 24th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
@Mike C,
I 'd like that you said,I would like to chat with you on MSN
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16
上午
My two cents on the “main factors that separate China from the world”:
Linguistic is probably the biggest reason that separates China from the rest of the world in both ways. Actually this applies to any two countries that speak different languages. However, IMO Chinese is more exposed to western cultures than people in western countries to Chinese culture. I'm not saying there's no misunderstanding or prejudice of western countries in Chinese minds (in fact quite a lot) but giving the strong influence of western culture in China and the increasing number of Chinese who are studying English (mandatory in many elementary schools), I have to say Chinese on average knows their counterparts better than the reverse. This is especially true in the case of expats where most Chinese overseas citizens are students or business people who master the native language in a level of basic conversation while a lot English teachers and businessmen in China can barely speak Chinese. That's probably why you hardly hear Chinese expats grumbling on the host countries' domestic affairs (except for their media's view on China) while a lot expats in China made many complaints. On the Internet censorship, I believe censoring English websites did much less than blocking Chinese expats' websites in Chinese. How many Chinese read English articles on Chinese issues or international news? Instead most knowledge of foreign countries comes from Chinese news (official and expats' blogs/forums). Ironically, Chinese overseas as a group are, generally speaking, pro-government and have less “foregien-moon-is-rounder” illusion than people in China.
Anyway, things are improving. China has just opened its door to the world for 30 years and so much communication has already been done than probably the last 5000 years combined. I see more challenge than rivalry. There's a contest between China and the west, in a who-is-the-winner-to-know-other-better competition. The winner will learn lessons faster and have an upper hand in future.
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Uln, I'm starting some research on asia's virtual worlds, rather similar to how you've started the discussion above. I'd like to piece together a picture of the parallel Chinese, Korean and Japanese worlds, and their companies/govt etc and if and when they will pinch off from the English internet. I was thinking that since China is already the largest English speaking nation in the world, when China reintegrates with the English Internet, it is not so much the govt talking but many angry Chinese who are fedup with being misrepresented in the western media. Is it ok I use your material with full attribution for my research? 谢谢! CP
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Uln Reply:
January 14th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
@CP: Sure, no need to ask, I think the Creative Commons licence lets you do just that. Don't take the above pictures too literally regarding Japanese and Koreans though, my knowledge of those too countries is superficial, and this post was meant to make some points about China rather than about those.
I would be curious to see your results regarding those other Asian countries and whether they are as far from the English internet as China. If you publish it somewhere give us a link.
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