The case of the looted statues
Written by Julen Madariaga on March 13th, 2009I am going to spice up my blog by providing some first hand opinion on my weekly tour of the Sinosphere. These are mostly comments that I’ve done previously in other forums and I collect here. I will try to do this every week, subject to the rate at which my brain can churn out opinions.
THE TAMADE STATUES - We have heard more than enough of those ugly statues that are clearly not worth the noise, so I will be brief. Here’s what the forums say. On the West side: it’s a clever PR coup by the CPC; on the East side: indignation, history, insults and record participation. In the middle, the French, who are so used to being bashed by both Americans and Chinese for any possible reason that they don’t seem to mind anymore.
I can understand the indignation of the Chinese public, these statues have come to symbolize the humiliation of the colonial times. But I am sure that, regardless of the legal basis, the Chinese government could use some of its famous patience, diplomacy and political leverage to get those lumps of bronze safely back home were they belong. And, in the long term, to reach a general agreement for the repatriation of art works.
The trouble is: that would’t solve the problem. Because this is not about art, it is about national honour and about a debt with the past. And the past, however unjust it may have been, is not ours to change anymore. So some excited Chinese just need to get over these things. Carrying your wounded country in your heart is romantic and tempting, but in the long term it only leads to blindness, conflict, and the neglecting of important issues.
Rob said:
zhongwen(chinese) said:
Cement Science said:
Mila Beccue said:
CrazyCat said:
Visitor said:
14
AM
Bullshit!!!!!
Here in the west, Jews are hunting down old concentration camp guards; Americans are trying lynchers of the 50s/60s; they are hailed as heroes. And somehow Chinese people wanting looted artifacts back, you say “get over it”? Send the stuff back and we’ll “get over it”, else just shut up and pretend you don’t care instead of making yourself look more like an ass. And for the sake of courtesy I shall say nothing more about the Zionists, but hopefully you get my point.
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14
AM
Wow. I knew this would get some people excited, but I didn’t imagine nazi comparisons could make it into the very first line of the first comment. This must be the fastest case ever recorded of Godwin’s law!
Anyway. I don’t know who you are, but reading your comment it is obvious that you don’t care about art. You just have psychological issues, consequence of prolonged exposure to victimist nationalism. No amount of returning artifacts can cure this.
But don’t worry, there are other remedies: just travel a lot, communicate with other cultures, read books, and little by little you will see how you get better again.
And then perhaps you will realize that destroying and stealing in an emperor’s palace 150 years ago is not at all comparable with the crimes of the Nazis or the KKK.
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14
PM
uln
Have Spaniards got over Gibraltar. If they have, is it because they “travel a lot, communicate with other cultures, read books”? Or it’s just because they have come to the conclusion that nothing can be done.
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14
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I bet King Juan Carlos will never get over Gibraltar, but I don’t think it is a good idea to advise his majesty to try your remedies.
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uln Reply:
March 14th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
LOL, I will send your message to the king. Anyway, the king of Spain has no power to decide these things, it is the president who has the political power. As for Uln, let me tell you a secret, between you and me: I am a republican (in the European sense of the word!)
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14
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xu,
Not all Spanish have got over Gibraltar. You see, victimism is not exclusive of China, it is used in many countries. In Spain there are also nationalists, and like the Chinese ones they get very excited with these things.
But to answer your question: yes, from my observations I would say the majority of Spanish have got over Gibraltar. 40 years ago, when we lived in a closed, non-democratic country, Gibraltar was a big issue. Now we travel, we communicate, we opened our minds, we have become part of the EU. And we have learnt that those old grudges are not worthy of spoiling our friendship with other peoples who are not guilty of what some stupid old Kings did in the past.
Mind you, Spain has not given up Gibraltar, there are still negotiations with UK, and eventually it is very possible that G will come back to Spain. But the difference with China and the statues is that the Spanish government doesn’t pull a show of “hurt feelings” to excite the people.We know how dangerous those feelings can be, and we don’t like to play with fire.
It might be difficult for excited minds to understand this, but believe me: living in a country with more territory, or more honour, or more bronze statues, will not make you any happier. Opening your mind, meeting different people and working to build a better World will.
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15
PM
I just don’t like the use of the word “Chinese”. It’s such as large crowd out here and we share the same collective label as “Chinese people”. Not everyone cares about these ugly animal heads. Not everyone feels the same indignation that your article suggests.
For China You Ren-s, please do not generalize or label the Chinese, as the mainstream western media do.
Other than that, i think it’s an interesting article. i will give you 4.5 out of 5.
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xiao lu Reply:
March 15th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
INDEED!
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15
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I hope our valuable and historical artifacts back to our motherland.
However there are hundreds and thousands Chinese artifacts scattering abroad and the real value of the animal heads is still debatable.
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15
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@hurangzhi - Point noted. I keep complaining that the Chinese often generalize and put all the Western people in the same category, but now I have done the same mistake. Just edited the post to write “some Chinese” insted of “the Chinese”
@xiao lu - I also added “where they belong” because I do think the right place for those artifacts to be is in China. As you have already understood, my critic is not on the fact that China reclaims them, but just on the methods used.
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17
AM
“But don’t worry, there are other remedies: just travel a lot, communicate with other cultures, read books, and little by little you will see how you get better again.”
I have very well travelled (flew around the world last year). My job is to communicate with other cultures. I try to read for my book club when I am on my long haul flights. Joyce is one of my favorite authors. And I absolutely supported the Chinese’ position with regard to the artifacts.
My point is, do not automatically assume that just because a person disagrees with your position, it’s because they are narrow minded or do not have international exposure or they are fenqings. It’s possible that they support the same position but from completely different perspectives and due to completely different reasons.
My own background couldn’t be more different from fenqings and I find them an annoying lot mostly. As a Chinese American, I have my own reasons for supporting the return of Chinese artifacts. But I often hesitate to explain because (1) I will be labeled as a communist sympathizer (yep censorship comes in many different forms) and (2) most non-Chinese are so certain of their position that they refuse to even acknowledge that there could be a different perspective not to mention understanding that perspective (really not unlike some fenqings).
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17
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Hi Cat. Yes, that comment of mine was patronizing, but the first commentator quite deserved it.
I know you are not a fenqing, neither is HJG. Very few fenqings have a level of English to understand the posts, and even fewer care to come into my blog, anyway. It is most of the times Chinese-Americans who come here to defend the Chinese side. And usually they are more radical than the Chinese commentators. Your comment has given me some insight on why this is happening.
Of course, “fenqings” or nationalists are not exclusive of China, we find them in every country. They are not so many in number, but their influence can be largely magnified by stories like this one that get everyone excited. It is this aspect that I was critizicing in my post.
As for the statues, I do think they should go back to China. But not breaking the law in Europe, and not in a way that will be shown as a victory of the CPC’s nationalist policies. It can be done, but it requires patience and diplomacy, not least of all to avoid the speculation and soaring prices on the artifacts.
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18
AM
Radical? In what ways? What is not a radical position with respect to China related issues. Is there a “normal” point of view?
I may hold a particular view on the looted artifact issue but at the same time I also ship to friends in China works by western political theorists such as Jefferson, Locke, de Tocqueville. In fact one of my favorite books is a compiling of the documents surrounding the founding of the US republic. I never thought of myself as a radical.
Anyway, I appreciate you thinking and writing about the issues related to China.
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19
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I didn’t say (and I didn’t think) that you are a radical. I just said that some ABCs are quite radical in their opinions about China. I don’t even think it is a large proportion of the ABCs, it is just a few very guys that are very active on the internet.
HJG starting a comment with “bullshit” or some of the commentators at the FM blog are good examples. HJG is by far not the worst case I have seen.
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20
AM
“So some excited Chinese just need to get over these things. Carrying your wounded country in your heart is romantic and tempting, but in the long term it only leads to blindness, conflict, and the neglecting of important issues.”
LOL the moral arrogance is astounding.
+1
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20
AM
I remember a phrase from a Len Deighton novel - “. . . the difference between an open-minded man and a well-travelled bigot”. Now if I could only remember what the difference was . . .
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@Zheng - You don’t make sense. There is nothing moral in that phrase. It is simply a conclusion from recent history: victimist nationalism leads to conflict. And it will happen again if “some Chinese” don’t check it. For the most part those “some Chinese” are in the government of the PRC.
As for arrogant and astounding: Yes, I am all that, but only part-time.
@FOARP - Couldn’t find the answer on Google, now I am curious!
PS. I found the latest FM thread about ABC’s nationalism really instructive, after a while I stopped writing and just read what people had to say. I was surprised to see that most of the people writing there are very reasonable. In recent threads I had found the atmosphere a bit too hot for my taste.
My conclusion being: sometimes on the internet disagreements are more because of HOW you say things rather than WHAT you say. Something to do with the absence of voice and facial expression, I guess.
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21
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“You don’t make sense. There is nothing moral in that phrase. It is simply a conclusion from recent history: victimist nationalism leads to conflict. And it will happen again if “some Chinese” don’t check it. For the most part those “some Chinese” are in the government of the PRC.”
Your condescending tone exemplifies the moral superiority complex you hold. History shows a variety of outcomes not just an inflexible “It is simply a conclusion from recent history” that you’ve laid that will surely befall “some Chinese”.
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21
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There is a variety of outcomes from victimist nationalism? Yes, you are right, there is a variety: Srebrenica, the IIWW, hutu ethic cleansing, and lots more. Can you give me any examples of good outcomes?
The only good outcome I can think of is to make a country feel more united. But hate is not a good basis for unity, and it is a risky one. More often than not it is politicians promoting this hate to remain in power. I reserve my condescending tone for those people.
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30
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uln:
1.) Well thank you for persisting in responses. I now know what “victimist nationalism” is.
Let’s try for “cooperative” nationalism, and maybe, “tolerant” internationalism.
2.) Re the statues: Perhaps “some Chinese” could come to view the statues as manifestations of Chinese creativity, bequeathed to a world in need of bullish expressionism.
Carey Rowland, author of Glass half-Full
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30
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Hi Carey. Your blog seems to be blocked in China, I cannot open it.
1) Given the option, I definitely choose “tolerant internationalism”
2) The statues are no manifestation of Chinese creativity but a work commissioned by a Qing emperor to some European artist living in Beijing at the time. Whether this is true or not, you only have to compare these heads to some of the beauties still standing in the Forbidden City to see that they are not great achievements of Chinese art. I am almost certainly sure that noone has been moved by the beauty of the statues, but rather by what they have come to symbolize.
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Carey Rowland Reply:
March 31st, 2009 at 7:50 am
uln:
1.) Thanks for educating me on the statues issue. Your concise explanation clarifies the issue. I’ve been reading quite a bit about China lately, in preparation for a sojourn there this summer (to visit my son who is living in Shanghai.) I’m starting to understand a little of this long history of Western intrusion, which seems to have generated serious resentment in some Chinese quarters. Your pic of the statues is actually quite indicative of the problem; I think traditional Chinese art is much more inspired. From my perspective it might be a little like trying to display Warhol at the Uffizi in Florence. I suppose that “what they have come to symbolize” is much more than the art itself.
2.) Thanks, also, for the report on my website, which is not a blog at all, but a presentation of two novels, along with some original music. In my first novel, Glass half-Fullthe story ends up with the introduction of a (possibly controversial) Chinese character. I’m wondering if that content might have prompted the blocking. Or is there some other, more policy-related issue going on here?
3.) Anyway, I find your site very fascinating. Thanks for the posts.
Carey Rowland, author of Glass Chimera
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31
AM
BTW: Those statue heads are worth very little in terms of artistic values.
Sometimes I wonder why no one comments on all the countless historical treasures such as buildings, paints, books, etc. that were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. So in a way, the French ‘helped’ preserve piece of our history, and we should thank them for it.
Aside, if the British Museum gives back ill begotten treasures such as Parthenon (Elgin) marbles, then it will be a big empty building devoid of any thing worth much.
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